Author Topic: 1897 Haynes  (Read 5087 times)

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Offline redwolf564

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1897 Haynes
« on: December 15, 2007, 05:36:45 PM »
The photo of the 1897 Haynes on web site is NOT the oldest Haynes that one i belive is letter E and i know where letter C is at

Offline Ultra

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Re: 1897 Haynes
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2007, 05:37:47 PM »
The photo of the 1897 Haynes on web site is NOT the oldest Haynes that one i belive is letter E and i know where letter C is at

Well, tell us where C is and, better yet, show us a pic.

 ???

“Honi soit qui mal y pense”


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Offline Tifosi

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Re: 1897 Haynes
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2007, 06:39:04 PM »
Here's a shot of what the Detroit News calls an 1894 Haynes...it's in the Smithsonian Institution.  The model designation is not given.  I can tell you with certainty that Elwood Haynes built his first car in 1894, and tested it on July 4, 1894 on the Pumpkinvine Pike just outside Kokomo, Indiana; about 15 miles from my hometown.

The car was actually built by the Apperson brothers, Elmer and Edgar, Haynes designed the car, and they built it under his direction.  They formed an auto company together in 1898, and built cars until 1902.  Then, the Appersons and Haynes split, and Appersons were built until 1925.

Haynes is also well-known for his alloy, Stellite; which is used in machine tools.  Several variations of it are used in aerospace applications.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2007, 06:43:31 PM by Tifosi »
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Offline Allan L

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Re: 1897 Haynes
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2007, 03:38:03 AM »
You have to be quite careful with the history of Haynes-Apperson.
In about 1918 Elwood Haynes published a history of the company, aimed at proving that his had been the first production car built in the United States. Research by various modern analysts shows that he rather misrepresented his progress in the 1890s and that the earliest Haynes-Apperson was not built until 1898 (as you've implied above) and not 1892 or 1894 as Haynes claimed (can't recall exactly which - my work on the subject is archived!).
There was a H-A Surrey in a US museum for which a date of 1896 was claimed, but we believe 1900 is more likely. Since the owner did not want to accept that dating (determined both by a US researcher, and the Dating Committee of the Veteran Car Club of GB) it probably still says it's 1896. Is that the one that was supposed to have illustrated the first post of this thread?
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Offline Ultra

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Re: 1897 Haynes
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2007, 04:28:49 AM »
You have to be quite careful with the history of Haynes-Apperson.
In about 1918 Elwood Haynes published a history of the company, aimed at proving that his had been the first production car built in the United States. Research by various modern analysts shows that he rather misrepresented his progress in the 1890s and that the earliest Haynes-Apperson was not built until 1898 (as you've implied above) and not 1892 or 1894 as Haynes claimed (can't recall exactly which - my work on the subject is archived!).
There was a H-A Surrey in a US museum for which a date of 1896 was claimed, but we believe 1900 is more likely. Since the owner did not want to accept that dating (determined both by a US researcher, and the Dating Committee of the Veteran Car Club of GB) it probably still says it's 1896. Is that the one that was supposed to have illustrated the first post of this thread?

Nice background on the Haynes, Allan L.

 :hail:
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Offline Allan L

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Re: 1897 Haynes
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2007, 05:07:20 AM »
Nice background on the Haynes, Allan L.

 :hail:
Most of it is based on the work of the late Alfred S Lewerenz so the real credit goes to him. I just added a few extra discoveries.
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Offline Tifosi

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Re: 1897 Haynes
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2007, 06:54:40 AM »
This is the first I've heard of this discrepancy regarding the date of Haynes' first car and the famous test .  I'm not saying I don't believe you, Allan; it's just that a major icon around here has been taken down a peg or two...




Dan
"Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending..."

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Offline Allan L

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Re: 1897 Haynes
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2007, 11:01:36 AM »
This is the first I've heard of this discrepancy regarding the date of Haynes' first car and the famous test .  I'm not saying I don't believe you, Allan; it's just that a major icon around here has been taken down a peg or two...
Dan
That one in your picture may well have been Haynes first car and 1892, but what he was claiming was that cars were in production then, and not only after 1896. As I said, I archived my work, so have to rely on memory, but I'll try to look it out.
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Offline Tifosi

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Re: 1897 Haynes
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2007, 01:19:53 AM »
This is the first I've heard of this discrepancy regarding the date of Haynes' first car and the famous test .  I'm not saying I don't believe you, Allan; it's just that a major icon around here has been taken down a peg or two...
Dan
That one in your picture may well have been Haynes first car and 1892, but what he was claiming was that cars were in production then, and not only after 1896. As I said, I archived my work, so have to rely on memory, but I'll try to look it out.

The first Haynes was built in 1894; I've found a lot of websites that confirm that.  As to when Haynes-Apperson cars went into production seems to be harder to pin down.  I DO know that Haynes and the Appersons AGREED to incorporate in 1896, but production seems to have started in 1898.  Since there was no partnership or corporation before 1896, it would seem that there is no way that Haynes could claim with any accuracy that the car was in production before then.


Dan
"Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending..."

Bender B.Rodrigues

Offline Allan L

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Re: 1897 Haynes
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2007, 05:43:24 AM »
I've dug out my work from September 2000, an update of the work of Alfred S. Lewerenz of 1962, and even as a summary, it's a bit long and detailed for here. Just to confirm the reality, the following analysis of H-A production comes from "Alloys and Automobiles - the Life of Elwood Haynes"
Year           Production
1894                   1
1895                   1
1896                   1
1897                   1
1898                   5
1899                 30
1900               192
1901               240

The Haynes version of event was published in a Silver Anniversary edition of the "Haynes Pioneer" dated July 1918
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Offline Tifosi

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Re: 1897 Haynes
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2007, 05:58:34 AM »
One car per year...hardly a production run.



Dan
"Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending..."

Bender B.Rodrigues