Author Topic: MJW #1127 - Maserati 2.9-litre Sports - not quite solved  (Read 5347 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline targhediferro

  • Professional
  • *
  • Posts: 7789
  • Country: it
  • Puzzle Points 409
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: MJW #1127
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2013, 07:14:25 AM »
Siata?

Offline woodinsight

  • Professional
  • *
  • Posts: 13671
  • Country: fr
  • Puzzle Points 557
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: MJW #1127
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2013, 07:47:00 AM »
Not Siata or Moretti - BUT it is a Maserati.....
LOCKED for mekubb to provide the engine size (that's the only other thing I know about it at the moment)

Offline mekubb

  • Expert
  • *
  • Posts: 5138
  • Country: nl
  • Puzzle Points 308
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: MJW #1127
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2013, 08:43:01 AM »
Well, I have to guess the engine size. Couldn't find the car in the Orsini-Zagari book, could be a pre-war chassis with a post-war body. So let's go for 1500 cc

Offline woodinsight

  • Professional
  • *
  • Posts: 13671
  • Country: fr
  • Puzzle Points 557
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: MJW #1127
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2013, 09:22:13 AM »
Well, I have to guess the engine size. Couldn't find the car in the Orsini-Zagari book, could be a pre-war chassis with a post-war body. So let's go for 1500 cc
I believe the car was converted from a pre-WW II racing car in the 1940s/50s.
The engine is quite a bit larger than 1.5-litre though........
Have another try......

Offline mekubb

  • Expert
  • *
  • Posts: 5138
  • Country: nl
  • Puzzle Points 308
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: MJW #1127
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2013, 10:11:51 AM »
When not a pre-war 1500 engine, it could also be a 3 litre or 3,7 litre engine. I guess 3 litre  ???

Offline woodinsight

  • Professional
  • *
  • Posts: 13671
  • Country: fr
  • Puzzle Points 557
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: MJW #1127
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2013, 11:31:55 AM »
When not a pre-war 1500 engine, it could also be a 3 litre or 3,7 litre engine. I guess 3 litre  ???
Close enough for you to gain a point - it's 2.9-litre according to my source - see below

Offline woodinsight

  • Professional
  • *
  • Posts: 13671
  • Country: fr
  • Puzzle Points 557
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Solved - MJW #1127 - Maserati 2.9-litre Sports (unknown coachbuilder)
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2013, 11:35:52 AM »
Although I've moved it to the Solved section, there is still another point on offer if someone can provide more information (inc. coachbuilder)

Offline mekubb

  • Expert
  • *
  • Posts: 5138
  • Country: nl
  • Puzzle Points 308
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Solved - MJW #1127 - Maserati 2.9-litre Sports (unknown coachbuilder)
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2013, 11:49:41 AM »
Thanks for the point Malcolm. I would be very interested to hear the history of this car, so may be you should leave it in the Expert or Pro section to see if anyone can come up with the coach builder / history. Header : 'Maserati 2.9 litre Sports + 1 more point waiting' or something like it

Offline woodinsight

  • Professional
  • *
  • Posts: 13671
  • Country: fr
  • Puzzle Points 557
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Solved - MJW #1127 - Maserati 2.9-litre Sports (unknown coachbuilder)
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2013, 02:00:36 PM »
Thanks for the point Malcolm. I would be very interested to hear the history of this car, so may be you should leave it in the Expert or Pro section to see if anyone can come up with the coach builder / history. Header : 'Maserati 2.9 litre Sports + 1 more point waiting' or something like it
I don't think I have the means to move it back again...... :-\

Offline Carnut

  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 40953
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 423
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Solved - MJW #1127 - Maserati 2.9-litre Sports (unknown coachbuilder)
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2013, 02:57:32 PM »
I don't think I have the means to move it back again...... :-\

I've moved it back to the Pro's for you; let me know if that's not what you wanted!
Interests in life:  Cars, cars, cars - oh and ..er..cars

Offline targhediferro

  • Professional
  • *
  • Posts: 7789
  • Country: it
  • Puzzle Points 409
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Solved - MJW #1127 - Maserati 2.9-litre Sports (unknown coachbuilder)
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2013, 04:34:55 PM »
It's quite sure that the car has been assembled in England, in the fifties; I find it very similar to Alvis TA14. Is it possible that some parts of that car has been used?

Offline woodinsight

  • Professional
  • *
  • Posts: 13671
  • Country: fr
  • Puzzle Points 557
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Solved - MJW #1127 - Maserati 2.9-litre Sports (unknown coachbuilder)
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2013, 02:46:56 AM »
I don't think I have the means to move it back again...... :-\

I've moved it back to the Pro's for you; let me know if that's not what you wanted!
Perfect - thanks Carnut!

Offline woodinsight

  • Professional
  • *
  • Posts: 13671
  • Country: fr
  • Puzzle Points 557
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Solved - MJW #1127 - Maserati 2.9-litre Sports (unknown coachbuilder)
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2013, 02:53:21 AM »
It's quite sure that the car has been assembled in England, in the fifties; I find it very similar to Alvis TA14. Is it possible that some parts of that car has been used?
I'm quite sure that's the case.....
I agree there is a similarity to the Alvis but I'm not sure if an Alvis body was used or whether it was built specifically for this car.

Now it's back in the Pros again perhaps we'll find the true story behind this interesting car!
I'll do some digging in my library to see if it's mentioned somewhere back in that period.

Offline D-type

  • Expert
  • *
  • Posts: 8154
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 251
  • A retired civil engineer interested in cars
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Solved - MJW #1127 - Maserati 2.9-litre Sports (unknown coachbuilder)
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2013, 05:11:43 AM »
The Wilson preselector gearbox also suggests that this car was built in Britain.
Duncan Rollo

The more you learn, the more you realise how little you know.

Offline woodinsight

  • Professional
  • *
  • Posts: 13671
  • Country: fr
  • Puzzle Points 557
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Solved - MJW #1127 - Maserati 2.9-litre Sports (unknown coachbuilder)
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2013, 01:58:57 PM »
The Wilson preselector gearbox also suggests that this car was built in Britain.
Well spotted Duncan - I'm sure there's quite a history behind this car......

Offline nicanary

  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 18535
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 638
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Solved - MJW #1127 - Maserati 2.9-litre Sports (unknown coachbuilder)
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2013, 04:29:17 PM »
There really can't have been that many 2.9s in this country during that period. I recall Bira and Whitney Straight driving them (maybe it was the same car!).

It strikes me that someone made it into a road car using a body off ,say, an Alvis or Turner, and since then it's been put back to the original now that values are so high. At the time it would just have been an old racing car.
I must be right - that's what it says on Wikipedia

Offline nicanary

  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 18535
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 638
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: MJW #1127 - Maserati 2.9-litre Sports - not quite solved
« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2013, 05:40:18 AM »
Now I'm a Pro I have time on my hands - none of the frenetic scramble to answer quickly before anyone else !

I've been thinking about this one. The engine is 2.9 litres, which suggests either an 8CM3000 or an 8CTF. The latter car was very much a monoposto, and went on to success at Indianapolis, but the former was effectively a "production" racer, and was available, more to the point, in two chassis widths, 620mm and 850mm.  The latter size was extremely amenable for conversion to two-seater format.

In 1933 the British-domiciled American amateur Whitney Straight ordered 3 Maserati 8CM cars from the works, one of which was to be of the wider size. The interesting thing is that he arranged for Thomson & Taylor at Brooklands to carry out some engineering alterations to the cars, which included fitting pre-selector gearboxes. (Doug Nye states in a brief resume of these cars that they were Armstrong-Siddeley 'boxes, not the Wilson mentioned in the "ad"). In fact only 2 cars were delivered on time, and he was later provided with his third car which turned out to be an ex-Nuvolari works racer which had been refurbished (typical of Maserati shenanigans).

The wider-chassised car was #3012. A similar car #3013 was delivered to Lord Howe. This was crashed by a later owner and the remains were recovered and restored to original in recent times. However, Straight's car #3012 WAS bodied as a two-seater sports car for the road, albeit in typical pre-war cycle-winged form. It no longer exists - all that is known is that it was broken up post-war. I'm working on the premise that this puzzle car was bodied in the UK in typical early-50s style, converting what was an old-fashioned design into something more streamlined and in the modern fashion. It's what happened to a lot of old cars, even what are now considered historically important and valuable racers.

So I can't answer the puzzle, but I'm inclined to think it is Whitney Straight's chassis #3012 which was always a road car, and was modernised after WW2 by a new owner. There were no other Maseratis made with that engine size, and I really can't believe that a second-hand car dealer would go to the bother of importing a car from the Continent just for resale. The car must have already been in the UK, which makes it almost certainly one of Straight's cars.
I must be right - that's what it says on Wikipedia

Offline Allan L

  • Feature Writer
  • *
  • Posts: 4822
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 414
  • Forum Host in Vintage!
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: MJW #1127 - Maserati 2.9-litre Sports - not quite solved
« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2013, 05:53:02 AM »
Doug Nye states in a brief resume of these cars that they were Armstrong-Siddeley 'boxes, not the Wilson mentioned in the "ad").
The term "Wilson gearbox" is a generic description rather than a specific maker and Armstrong-Siddeley made preselector gearboxes using Wilson patents.
Opinionated but sometimes wrong

Offline nicanary

  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 18535
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 638
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: MJW #1127 - Maserati 2.9-litre Sports - not quite solved
« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2013, 05:54:35 AM »
Doug Nye states in a brief resume of these cars that they were Armstrong-Siddeley 'boxes, not the Wilson mentioned in the "ad").
The term "Wilson gearbox" is a generic description rather than a specific maker and Armstrong-Siddeley made preselector gearboxes using Wilson patents.

Good point. Thank Allan. (I'm still digging on this one)
I must be right - that's what it says on Wikipedia

Offline nicanary

  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 18535
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 638
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: MJW #1127 - Maserati 2.9-litre Sports - not quite solved
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2013, 06:37:25 AM »
OK. I was wrong. I'm pretty sure it was the Lord Howe car #3013, which was ,as I said, a wide-chassised car.

He raced the car, followed by Cholmondeley-Tapper and then Archie Hide, who crashed the car badly at the Nurburgring in 1938. He kept the remains over WW2, and then they were purchased by Kenneth McAlpine who was racing Whitney Straight's narrow-chassis #3011. He used the wreck as spares for this car.

In 1951 the wreck was bought by Brian Finglass who built a sports-car in the modern style on the chassis.  It was bought off him by non other than Gavin Maxwell, author of "Ring of bright water", and later was owned by Lord Ridley, who fitted the engine from #3011. Later still the car was re-matched with the correct engine and converted back to original pre-war form by Bill Summers and David Black. It is presently with a German collector AFAIK.

The car built by Finglass was advertised in Motor Sport magazine in March 1955, as being deep-red, having a large grille with an XK120-type windscreen, and long-range driving lights. In my opinion this matches the puzzle car. I don't know where the puzzle photo was located - Finglass' address was London W11. I don't suppose we'll ever find out who the coachbuilder was - Brian Finglass was a well-known dealer in racing and sports cars, but I doubt he did the work himself.

Phew !
I must be right - that's what it says on Wikipedia

Offline Iluvatar

  • Expert
  • *
  • Posts: 2511
  • Country: it
  • Puzzle Points 245
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
    • www.automobileitaliana.it
Re: MJW #1127 - Maserati 2.9-litre Sports - not quite solved
« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2013, 06:58:05 AM »
[...] The latter car was very much a monoposto, and went on to success at Indianapolis, but the former was effectively a "production" racer, and was available, more to the point, in two chassis widths, 620mm and 850mm.  The latter size was extremely amenable for conversion to two-seater format. [...]

The 850mm chassis was introduced to fit the 1934 "750 kg Formula" regulation:
Quote from: www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/
The main requirements of this formula were:
    1. The weight of the car without driver, fuel, oil, water or tyres should not exceed 750 kg.
    2. A minimum bodywork width of 850 mm at the driving seat. (Note 2)
    3. Free choice of fuel.
    4. All races must be over a minimum distance of 500 kilometers. (Note 3)

The same happened with the widened 1934 Alfa Romeo P3.
L'Automobile Italiana automobileitaliana.it
Facebook automobileitaliana
Instagram @autoitaliana

Offline nicanary

  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 18535
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 638
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: MJW #1127 - Maserati 2.9-litre Sports - not quite solved
« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2013, 11:08:22 AM »
Just to confuse matters more, I have read on the pages of the "Gavin Maxwell Society" that his car was from 1936 and had been driven by Whitney Straight. Maybe they are adding 2 and 2 to make 5, or Brian Finglass told Maxwell this when selling it to him. I still think it's Howe's car.

Still doesn't answer the question - who built the body? Most coachbuilders build to a commission order, or as an example of their work for a show. I reckon Finglass had a small-time bodyshop make this up from what they had available and it's not a "coachbuilder's job" as we know it. Will we ever find out ?
I must be right - that's what it says on Wikipedia

Offline nicanary

  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 18535
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 638
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: MJW #1127 - Maserati 2.9-litre Sports - not quite solved
« Reply #47 on: July 20, 2013, 06:41:30 PM »
I'm still digging on this one, and may possibly be able to shed further light on the car. I do not wish to broach site protocol, but it would really help to have a date for the advert  that forms the puzzle subject. This may lead to corroboration of facts and data.
I must be right - that's what it says on Wikipedia

Offline Carnut

  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 40953
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 423
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: MJW #1127 - Maserati 2.9-litre Sports - not quite solved
« Reply #48 on: July 20, 2013, 06:56:15 PM »
Woodinsight will be back on site in another week or two.
Interests in life:  Cars, cars, cars - oh and ..er..cars

Offline nicanary

  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 18535
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 638
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: MJW #1127 - Maserati 2.9-litre Sports - not quite solved
« Reply #49 on: July 21, 2013, 05:53:42 AM »
Woodinsight will be back on site in another week or two.

Thanks. I've missed him - he and I share a common interest in certain cars and eras.
I must be right - that's what it says on Wikipedia