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Author Topic: SOLVED: si_500 - Gräf & Sift - coach - built by W. Müller and F. Fleischer - 1965  (Read 3473 times)

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Offline fromwien

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Re: si_500
« Reply #50 on: November 17, 2023, 05:29:40 PM »
History: Walter & Harry Müller Busreisen, Stolpen (Google-translation of an German article)
The company's origins go back to the founding of the Walter Müller company as an independent haulage company. In 1945 Walter Müller bought a truck, equipped it with a wood gas generator and transported everything that was necessary to supply the population. His son Harry moved to his father's company after completing his apprenticeship as a technical draftsman. Having come up with the idea at a sporting event in Dresden, they converted the truck's loading area to transport people. The initially very rustic transport variant was technically improved and used for excursions. The strong response to these trips ultimately led to the purchase of two old buses, which were partially or completely rebuilt in their own workshop. These buses were the starting point for future vehicle construction. From now on, chassis with bodies were manufactured in Müllers own workshop and completed by external companies or completed exclusively in-house. A highlight in the vehicle construction of the Müller company was the cooperation with the Fleischer company in Gera. With the experts there, Harry Müller developed a self-supporting body with a floor pan and rear-wheel drive based on his own drawings and designs, particularly in the chassis area.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2023, 05:32:16 PM by fromwien »
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Offline sichel

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Re: si_500
« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2023, 06:38:37 AM »
Now that's what I call a detailed answer. Only the year of manufacture is still missing... Of course the puzzle is locked for fromwien.
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Ein Henschel zieht am Berg und ein Mercedes
an den Türen. (and an attempt of a translation):
A Henschel in rushing up the hill, wheras in a Mercedes wind is rushing through the doors. c/o norberthanke

Offline fromwien

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Re: si_500
« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2023, 07:03:56 AM »
1958?
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Offline sichel

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Re: si_500
« Reply #53 on: November 19, 2023, 05:22:41 AM »
No.
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Ein Henschel zieht am Berg und ein Mercedes
an den Türen. (and an attempt of a translation):
A Henschel in rushing up the hill, wheras in a Mercedes wind is rushing through the doors. c/o norberthanke

Offline fromwien

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Re: si_500
« Reply #54 on: November 19, 2023, 03:53:01 PM »
I hope, I can trust the informations I have about bus production at Fleischer:
1) Fleischer started with their own bus production with self-supporting bodywork in 1958
2) Fleischer was unable to buildup any buses from 1963 to 1965, because of a major USSR order for 200 X-ray-vehicles on SIL chassis
3) Plexiglas for roof edge glazing was no longer available in the GDR from 1966 on
Summarized I will try:
1962?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2023, 08:25:09 AM by fromwien »
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Offline sichel

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Re: si_500
« Reply #55 on: November 19, 2023, 05:00:47 PM »
Not 1962.
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Ein Henschel zieht am Berg und ein Mercedes
an den Türen. (and an attempt of a translation):
A Henschel in rushing up the hill, wheras in a Mercedes wind is rushing through the doors. c/o norberthanke

Offline fromwien

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Re: si_500
« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2023, 05:34:41 PM »
In between: 1960?
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Offline sichel

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Re: si_500
« Reply #57 on: November 19, 2023, 05:54:41 PM »
No.
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Ein Henschel zieht am Berg und ein Mercedes
an den Türen. (and an attempt of a translation):
A Henschel in rushing up the hill, wheras in a Mercedes wind is rushing through the doors. c/o norberthanke

Offline fromwien

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Re: si_500
« Reply #58 on: November 20, 2023, 03:16:46 AM »
Later than 1962?
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Offline sichel

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Re: si_500
« Reply #59 on: November 20, 2023, 04:55:17 AM »
Yes, there is already a hint in the correspondence on this puzzle.
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Ein Henschel zieht am Berg und ein Mercedes
an den Türen. (and an attempt of a translation):
A Henschel in rushing up the hill, wheras in a Mercedes wind is rushing through the doors. c/o norberthanke

Offline fromwien

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Re: si_500
« Reply #60 on: November 20, 2023, 05:11:54 AM »
Oh, thank you. Once more I didn't read all the previous posts carefully enough..
1965?
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Offline sichel

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Re: si_500
« Reply #61 on: November 20, 2023, 05:51:13 AM »
Yes, 1965 is correct. Here's your next point.
From 1963 to 1965, bus production at Fritz Fleischer KG came to a virtual standstill due to the large order for the production of X-ray trains.
However, repairs were still possible and designs for the next generation of buses, the S 2 RU, were already being finalised.
In this context, there seems to have been time to design the frame of the Müller bus. The frame was then built at Müller on a chassis from Gräf & Stift. They would have liked to place the engine in the rear, but this was not authorised by the licensing authority. The motorised frame was then driven to Fleischer for planking. Pure adventure!
I am attaching photos of two other vehicles from the Müller fleet.
Immediately after the Second World War, a wooden gas lorry was provisionally fitted with benches and a roof. The excursion bus was ready.
From 1969, further buses were built in co-operation with Fleischer. Here is an example.
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Ein Henschel zieht am Berg und ein Mercedes
an den Türen. (and an attempt of a translation):
A Henschel in rushing up the hill, wheras in a Mercedes wind is rushing through the doors. c/o norberthanke

Offline fromwien

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Re: si_500
« Reply #62 on: November 20, 2023, 06:13:12 AM »
Thank you for the point and puzzle.
Sadly missed to buy the "Fleischer"-book in time, now it's quite expensive on the second-hand-market
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Offline Wendax

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Re: si_500
« Reply #63 on: November 20, 2023, 06:44:00 AM »
Unfortunately this bus isn't included in the book.
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Offline fromwien

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Re: SOLVED: si_500 - Gräf & Sift - coach - built by W. Müller and F. Fleischer - 1965
« Reply #64 on: November 20, 2023, 08:09:39 AM »
Ok, thank you for the information, but I am also anyway interested in the company's history. Does anybody know more about the type of the Gräf & Stift chassis and its engine? Gräf & Stift built prototypes of buses with self-supporting bodywork in 1958, but stopped this adventure, because of high costs
« Last Edit: November 20, 2023, 08:27:30 AM by fromwien »
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