Author Topic: Vettel or Webber?  (Read 5095 times)

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Offline MG

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Vettel or Webber?
« on: May 30, 2010, 10:11:04 AM »
Who was at fault for the unbelievable crash between the two Red Bulls in Turkey today?

Did Vettel make an ill advised kamikaze move down the inside of Webber? Or did Webber not give enough room to Vettel?

I'll tell you my opinion after we get some input from you guys.
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Offline Ultra

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Re: Vettel or Webber?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2010, 12:38:03 PM »
It is very likely that Vettel would have done it differently if the car on his right was not a team mate and therefore he would have expected such tough treatment. He needed space for braking and tried to get some. Still, Vettel's fault but very bad teamwork from Webber. It must be remembered that both McLarens were pressing Vettel from behind and he was faster than Mark at that point of the race.
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Offline MG

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Re: Vettel or Webber?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2010, 01:55:10 PM »
Your point about Hamilton breathing down his neck is valid. But Webber is famous for being hard to pass. I think Vettel was overoptimistic in thinking Webber was going to show him any special treatment - or courtesy.

Vettel's move was the kind of thing one might expect with 3 laps or less to go. But not with 20+ laps in the race (I think it was). You have to know your opponent as well as he knows himself. Vettel learned something about Webber today.    ;)
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Re: Vettel or Webber?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2010, 03:04:42 PM »
Your point about Hamilton breathing down his neck is valid. But Webber is famous for being hard to pass. I think Vettel was overoptimistic in thinking Webber was going to show him any special treatment - or courtesy.

Vettel's move was the kind of thing one might expect with 3 laps or less to go. But not with 20+ laps in the race (I think it was). You have to know your opponent as well as he knows himself. Vettel learned something about Webber today.    ;)

Webber will learn how to be out of a job from this too.  He was off the racing line to squeeze his teammate.  The team is less than impressed.
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Re: Vettel or Webber?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2010, 04:42:31 PM »
For me definitely the guilt lies on Vettel;s side. Not 100% maybe, but at least 70%.

Vettel was too aggressive and overoptimistic in thinking that Webber will let him take the corner the way he wanted to. Webber just drove like he wasn't fighting, like Vettel wasn't there - he didn't give him place almost pushing him off the track and didn't react to vettel's early turn. And that's all right in my opinion. It's the passing driver's problem to make sure he can pass, not the passed one to make it easy for him.

And let's remember that the team told Webber to engage the fuel-saving mode one lap earlier than Vettel. Webber was probably feeling that they were making sure Vettel would pass him and decided not to give up his position too easily.

Vettel is becoming more and more cheeky and arrogant - trying too hard to become a new Schumi I suppose. Good that there are guys like Webber who can show him where his place is.
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Re: Vettel or Webber?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2010, 10:33:28 PM »
I'm inclined to pin it mostly on Vettel. Sidestepping the dark vagaries of team rules and expectations, my reasoning is simply based on:

1) It is the overtaking driver's responsibility to complete the pass safely, and
2) Weber didn't appear to make any illegal blocking move, but rather just drove a defensive line and didn't flinch.

The two other people I watched the race with (who don't generally follow motorsports) remarked of Vettel "why would he do that!?" My favorite comment, though, was the announcer who said "You.... silly..... boy!", with awkward pauses as he mentally ran through lists of adjectives and nouns unfit for broadcast.
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Re: Vettel or Webber?
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2010, 01:39:24 AM »
first, what a race if only between the bulls and merc.  A few laps after the bull's horned each other, the mercs did likewise.

Fault between the bulls lies with vettle.  I'd hate to be the team manager from this point forward.  Vettle was already saying webbo was preferential, and this only only throws gas on the troubles. 

With Merc, Hamilton was vocal with his bitch-y-ness, yet with vettle he kept quiet and took action on his own.  Lucky webbo was still able to drive on afterwards.  Stupid of vettle in the worst way.

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Re: Vettel or Webber?
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2010, 04:41:49 AM »

Vettel is becoming more and more cheeky and arrogant - trying too hard to become a new Schumi I suppose. Good that there are guys like Webber who can show him where his place is.
Arrogant? Not often do I read that in combination with Vettel.

I think Ultra is right on the mark with his comments though:
It is very likely that Vettel would have done it differently if the car on his right was not a team mate and therefore he would have expected such tough treatment. He needed space for braking and tried to get some. Still, Vettel's fault but very bad teamwork from Webber. It must be remembered that both McLarens were pressing Vettel from behind and he was faster than Mark at that point of the race.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 09:23:51 AM by DeAutogids.nl »

Offline MG

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Re: Vettel or Webber?
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2010, 07:04:36 AM »
« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 10:10:45 AM by MG »
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Re: Vettel or Webber?
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2010, 08:05:15 AM »
It's an endless loop, I tell ya - an endless loop!
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Offline MG

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Re: Vettel or Webber?
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2010, 08:56:37 AM »
Here's how Christian Horner sees it:

Red Bull Racing boss Christian Horner expressed “huge frustration” at the collision between Mark Webber and Sebastian Vettel that ruined both drivers’ races and cost the team 28 points – and said both drivers had to accept a share of responsibility. Polesitter Webber led the majority of the race, while a shrewd early tyre change for Vettel promoted him to second place ahead of McLaren’s Lewis Hamilton, putting the team on course for its third one-two finish of the season. But on lap 40, when Vettel got a run on Webber on the back straight, the pair clashed as they both refused to yield track position, ending Vettel’s race on the spot and consigning Webber to third place.

Horner made no attempt to disguise his anger afterwards, saying his two drivers had broken the cardinal rule that team-mates must not take each other off – and contrasting their antics with the tense but clean duel between McLaren duo Hamilton and Jenson Button.

“It’s really disappointing for the team to get into that position,” he said. “The one request I have for the drivers is that they must give each other room, give each other respect. “As we saw with Lewis and Jenson today, they fought pretty hard but they gave each other just enough room.”

Horner said the accident was particularly galling because Red Bull had outwitted McLaren on pit strategy and was on course to extend its championship lead.

“It was a massively close race between ourselves and McLaren today, and we’d managed to get ourselves ahead of them through a better pit stop and a better strategy with Sebastian,” he said. “We gave 28 points to McLaren on a plate today, which is disappointing for all the guys [Red Bull team members] who’ve put in so much hard work. “So it’s very frustrating.”

Many observers laid the blame squarely at Vettel’s door for prematurely moving across on Webber when he had not completed the pass. But Horner did not see the incident that way, pointing out that Vettel was faster than Webber at that stage of the race and that the Australian had given him very little racing room by squeezing him to the far inside of the straight. However he also reckoned Vettel had misjudged his manoeuvre by drifting across the track before he had pulled clear of Webber’s car.

“Sebastian had a clear run and he was quicker at that point of the race,” he noted. “Mark kept him on the dirty line and Sebastian came over arguably a bit too early.” He added: “You could see on the previous lap that Mark was looking like he was starting to struggle on that set of prime tyres, and Sebastian was very, very close to him. “He had a little bit of a look the previous lap and then got a very good run out of turn nine, got into his slipstream, and was actually three-quarters of the way past when they made contact. “I’m annoyed that they both got themselves into that situation. They are both at fault. “They didn’t give each other enough room – it’s as simple as that.”

When it was put to Horner that it was surprising Vettel had managed to get alongside Webber when Hamilton had been unable to do so throughout the first stint – despite the McLaren’s clear straightline speed advantage – he initially insisted the German had simply got a particularly strong exit from turn nine.

“You could see that Sebastian had a pace advantage,” he said. “I think Mark wasn’t quite as happy on that set of prime tyres. “Both guys were in the same engine mode, but one got a tow and the benefit of the tow was enough to put him alongside.”

However, Webber indicated that wasn’t the whole story when in the post-race press conference he advised journalists to “dig more” to understand why he had suddenly fallen into Vettel’s clutches. After a team debrief Horner later revealed that Webber had turned his engine down into a fuel-saving mode on the lap in question, which was what enabled Vettel to pick up his slipstream so early on the straight. It seems Vettel had been able to save an extra kilogramme of fuel as a result of having spent the race in the slipstream of other cars, and therefore was able to run one extra lap flat-out – which meant lap 40 gave him a potentially make-or-break opportunity to pass his team-mate.

But Horner pointed out that Red Bull did not have the option of reining Vettel in because he was under pressure from the close-following McLarens, with less than three seconds covering the leading quartet. “The problem was that you’ve got two McLarens right behind you, so you’re not in a position where you can start backing off at that stage of the race, so both drivers were going flat-out,” he explained.

And he was adamant that, whatever the circumstances, there was no excuse for two team-mates to crash into each other. “It’s inevitable when you’ve got two guys fighting at the front that occasionally you are going to have incidents – but what you don’t expect is to see it within your own team,” he said.

I am calling BULLSHIT on Horner. If they could not rein in Vette because of the pressure McLaren was applyingl, why then COULD they rein in Webber? Horner is talking out of both sides of his mouth and it makes me wonder why he would do that?   ???  Although there IS one explanation that springs to mind....... ::)

I said at the beginning of the season that the "no refueling" rule would lead to cars running out of fuel. That hasn't happened. But with McLaren on the radio telling Hamilton to conserve fuel at the end, and with Webber told to dial back his engine to conserve fuel, it is apparent that fuel strategy figured prominently in the results in Turkey.

I may be alone in this regard, as lots of people seem to think that having to manage tires and fuel is an integral part of racing. And it is, in some types of racing, particularly endurance racing. But for a sport that DARES to call itself the pinnacle of motorsports, forcing the drivers to cruise around in the middle of the race at the expense of giving the fans close combat on track is a huge disservice to the fans.  Booo, Formula One!    :thumbsdown:
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Offline MG

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Re: Vettel or Webber?
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2010, 10:12:32 AM »
Oooppsss,  so I did. I changed it but appreciate you pointing that out, kind sir!   :-*

And a note to AD: I got your note about "mentally challenged". I was referring to myself!!!!    ;D
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Re: Vettel or Webber?
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2010, 12:34:52 PM »
Busted in mid-self-deprecation!

This is a head scratcher; I don't know how to moderate this. Should the aggrieved party demand an apology, making MG apologize to himself? But then, wouldn't that result in self-promotion of a for-profit website, aka spamming? Would we then have to condemn MG for the original self-insult, moderator requested apology and resultant spamming?

Would an apology for the apology solve this or would it plunge us into a self-referential Monte Python parody? Who would sack the sackers? And what of the moose?

I'm so confused.  ??? :faint:
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Offline MG

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Re: Vettel or Webber?
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2010, 03:19:41 PM »
Clearly, my only choice is to go get a large glass of bourbon, sit out under the spreading chestnut tree in the yard and think about what I have done. My parents used to impose this sort of critical self examination on me when I was younger. Without the bourbon, of course!    :drink:
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Offline Ultra

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Re: Vettel or Webber?
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2010, 03:21:35 PM »
I think I'll go get me a glass of Wild Turkey Rare Breed.
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Re: Vettel or Webber?
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2010, 05:03:46 PM »
Sounds a bit like "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"

I do like a bit of spam though not as much as corned beef.

Offline MG

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Re: Vettel or Webber?
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2010, 06:10:05 PM »
Oh, I'm corny, all right!    :P

Humor is the hardest thing to translate. No worries, Mate!    :D
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Offline MG

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Re: Vettel or Webber?
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2010, 09:16:19 PM »
Here is a little more inside perspective from James Allen. There may be more going on a Red Bull than the fans are aware of:



Wow! We’ve seen some great battles between team-mates over the years, but rarely in such direct one-on-one scraps on the track. Today we had two, as first the Red Bull drivers and then the McLaren drivers got stuck into each other.

Lewis Hamilton deserved his win because he harried the Red Bulls in qualifying and the race and when they hit trouble he was there to pick up the pieces. Whereas Jenson Button and Hamilton gave each other plenty of space and executed some very classy overtakes, the Red Bull drivers clashed and it led to one of them retiring and the other losing a victory. It’s been a while since we’ve seen team-mates trip over each other like that.

There has been a growing tension between Webber and Vettel, largely because Vettel has been struggling to deal with the resurgent form of his older team-mate. There was a suggestion after the race that the difference in speed between the two drivers may have been due to different conditions applying to them. In the laps preceding the incident, Vettel had suddenly started going a few tenths of a second faster and had greater straightline speed. The suggestion was that Vettel’s engine was turned up more than Webber’s.

This has led to the reopening of the debate about whether Vettel is the favoured son at Red Bull. As well as Christian Horner the team principal, there is Dr Helmut Marko, who reports directly to Red Bull boss Dietrich Mateschitz. He has overseen the Red Bull driver development programme and invested many millions of euros into it. Vettel is the main product of that investment and it is important for certain figures within the team that he is the one who goes on to justify it by winning the world championship. But the team has been presented with a problem, albeit a nice one to have, with the dominant form of Webber in the last month.

The warmth of the reaction Vettel received when he went to the Red Bull pit wall after the incident spoke volumes. This kind of body language is always significant in a highly pressured sport like Formula 1, where individuals aren’t always schooled in how to react at crunch moments.

Vettel was behind Webber because he had a roll bar problem in qualifying and, having got himself up into second place in the closing stages, he saw an opportunity to pass. His impetuousness to close the deal and seal the move led to him moving across on Webber before he had actually got ahead.

Hamilton seemed quite subdued on the podium, possibly as a result of the late move on him by his team-mate when he was leading. He thought he had the race won and wasn’t expecting the attack from Button. He had been told to save fuel and was told that Button had been instructed likewise. And yet Button challenged him. Button obviously was as confused by the incident as Hamilton was and there is some tidying up to do there.

Hamilton praised Button for being fair, but will no doubt want to clear up exactly what happened in team communication. He added that Button is the best team-mate he’s ever had.

Interestingly, Hamilton felt that Vettel had done a “dangerous” and “erratic” move on him in their early battle, and compared it to the move on Webber. Hamilton was offering his support to Webber and it seems Vettel is under pressure from his fellow professionals for his on-track moves.
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Re: Vettel or Webber?
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2010, 05:21:48 AM »
"Dangerous move" from Vettel in the race on Hamilton? I think he has seen a different race then I did. The move from Vettel to pip Hamilton was a rather straightforward affair. Hamilton is somebody that needs constant motivation and if something doesn't work according to his plan he starts shouting irratic things.

Like last year on the Nurburg, where he was to eager and then had to get back at the back of the field. He then radioed to say he could better give up the race as there was nothing to gain.

Saying that Vettel made a dangerous move on him is just riding the wave of critisism towards Vettel.

To be fair, if you look at last year and this year, it's strange to see Vettel "always" having the trouble with the car, with engines blowing up (Valencia last year for example), spark plugs, brake discs that overheat and disintegrate (though Webber had that one in Shanghai last year), etc. Maybe he is indeed a bit to heavy on the car and driving with too much commitment.

Offline MG

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Re: Vettel or Webber?
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2010, 08:47:56 AM »
I didn't see any dangerous move on Hamilton either.

One of the things we get with drivers getting younger and younger is that they are so YOUNG!    :scratch:  Here are these kids barely into their twenties with millions of dollars being thrown at them, in the glare of international publicity but just on the edge of maturity. Perhaps it is no wonder that they sometimes act like children?    ???

There was a big stir when Kimi Raikkonen first came into the sport. There was a question whether the FIA would even grant someone so young (19) a Super License. Now, 19 year olds are everywhere and no one thinks a thing about it.

Hamilton's petulance during his year with Alonso as a teammate is legendary. Perhaps Vettel is also being petulant?

Some drivers are known for being hard on the car and others for being gentle. Jim Clark was so smooth, he would often use the same set of tires for 2 or more races!!!!    :o  Button has a reputation for a smoothness that preserves the car and the tires much more than does Hamilton.

In any event, I don't think be gentlemanly gets one very far in the racing world these days. Webber knows that there is often only one golden year in a grand prix driver's career when the possibility of a WDC looms. I think anyone who expects him to suddenly start moving out of the way for people is a very foolish person.   :nerves:
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Re: Vettel or Webber?
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2010, 11:24:47 AM »
I didn't see any dangerous move on Hamilton either.

One of the things we get with drivers getting younger and younger is that they are so YOUNG!    :scratch:  Here are these kids barely into their twenties with millions of dollars being thrown at them, in the glare of international publicity but just on the edge of maturity. Perhaps it is no wonder that they sometimes act like children?    ???

There was a big stir when Kimi Raikkonen first came into the sport. There was a question whether the FIA would even grant someone so young (19) a Super License. Now, 19 year olds are everywhere and no one thinks a thing about it.


I've heard the same said about football (soccer) players.

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Re: Vettel or Webber?
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2010, 02:15:16 PM »
“Honi soit qui mal y pense”


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Re: Vettel or Webber?
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2010, 06:39:14 PM »
Great video, Ultra!   :thumbsup:  What side of the debate do you suggest it supports?    :huh:
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Re: Vettel or Webber?
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2010, 12:28:55 AM »
New Twist To Red Bull Incident

Intrigue is growing surrounding the collision between Mark Webber and Sebastian Vettel which robbed Red Bull Racing of a 1-2 finish in the Turkish Grand Prix.

In the aftermath of the accident, Red Bull Racing's Helmut Marko and other senior team personnel appeared to hold Webber more responsible for the coming-together despite it being Vettel who had made the obvious driving error.

From the reaction it was easy to infer that despite Webber having led the race for the first 40 laps, it was Vettel who the team believed should be taking the 25 points maximum score.

The only way in which it made sense for Webber to be shouldering any responsibility for the accident was if an instruction had been made for the Australian to allow Vettel to pass. The team always denied this, however, and on Tuesday, Red Bull's PR department issued its own Q&A with team principal Christian Horner.

In it, Horner states: "Neither driver was given any instruction to change position. There are no team orders within Red Bull Racing other than that the drivers should race each other with respect."

Two days later, however, the British magazine 'Autosport' published its report of the race. Its Grand Prix editor, Mark Hughes, wrote: "Going into lap 40 team boss Christian Horner instructed Webber's engineer Ciaron Pilbeam to tell Webber to allow Vettel past. Pilbeam could not bring himself to pass the message on."

The magazine was published on the very day that the two Red Bull drivers met with Horner, Helmut Marko and Adrian Newey in Milton Keynes to have discussions that, it is claimed, were 'positive' and drew a line under the incident, although pointedly neither driver admitted responsibility.

Elsewhere, Autosport speculated that it might suit Marko's political agenda for Pilbeam to be sidelined as a scapegoat for the incident, although if this was to happen it would hardly foster the 'strong team spirit' that Red Bull claims and would no doubt go down like a lead balloon with Webber...

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns22318.html
“Honi soit qui mal y pense”


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