AutoPuzzles - The Internet's Museum of Rare Cars!
Puzzles, Games and Name That Car => Solved AutoPuzzles => 2019 => Topic started by: SACO on November 28, 2015, 03:47:32 AM
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Make , model and coach builder for this car ! :)
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Experts !
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From UK?
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Yes !
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Bristol?
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Not a Bristol !
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Rover P5?
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Not a Rover !
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Lagonda? (God forbid ;D)
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Not a Lagonda !
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Rolls Royce? ???
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And not a Rolls Royce !
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Alvis?
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Not Alvis !
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a well known manufacturer?
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Yes !
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Riley?
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Not a Riley !
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Bentley?
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Yes ! Locked for the coach builder !
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Abbott?
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Not Abbott !
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Pennock?
if not that please unlock
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Not Pennock ; unlocked !
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Pros !
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Is it by a European coachbuilder, like Serra?
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A European coach builder but not Serra !
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A European coach builder but not Serra !
French coachbuilder, e.g. Barou?
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Not a French coach builder !
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Not a French coach builder !
Belgian?
Is this a Bentley MkVI?
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Not Belgian !
I just know the base of the car and the owner that is perhaps the coach builder !
Not a Bentley MkVI !
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Wire wheels were normal on the 1930s 3½ and 4¼ litre cars so I'd suggest it's a post-war rebody of one of those.
I shall also suggest it was done in Britain.
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Graber?
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Not by Graber !
Yes ! it was done in Britain
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You said earlier that the body may have been built by the owner - am I correct in thinking that this is not a documented coachbuilder?
(Like Allan I think this is a Derby Bentley and it has shades of Park Ward and maybe Hooper about it, but they would never have created something like this!)
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Is it by a European coachbuilder, like Serra?
A European coach builder but not Serra !
Actually by 'European' I meant as opposed to British..
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Is it by a European coachbuilder, like Serra?
A European coach builder but not Serra !
Actually by 'European' I meant as opposed to British..
bit like "fog in the channel - Europe cut off"
8)
We now know it was done in Britain. Is it a post-war rebody of the pre-war Bentley as I suggested?
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Yes !it's a pre-war Bentley ,re-body in the United Kingdom ! ;)
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Actually by 'European' I meant as opposed to British..
bit like "fog in the channel - Europe cut off"
8)
Next time I'll qualify 'European' by adding 'mainland' or 'continental'!
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Bentley 3.5 litre as base car ?
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I don't know ; just it's a car from 1940!
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Is it one of the Capt. McLeod Bentleys?
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I don't know ; just it's a car from 1940!
That'd make it a 4¼ litre, but I'd say not many Bentleys were made in 1940 as the Derby cranemaker had more pressing work.
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Not McLeod Bentleys !
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I don't know ; just it's a car from 1940!
That'd make it a 4¼ litre, but I'd say not many Bentleys were made in 1940 as the Derby cranemaker had more pressing work.
The last Bentleys made before production ceased were the new MkV model, of which only 9 chassis were constructed. These were sold and bodied in 1940 and even 1941, although the chassis had been built in 1939.
If the OP's source says this is a 1940 Bentley, the it's probably a MkV rebodied in this more modern style in the early 1960s. I still can't find it though! Surely somebody must have individual records of these cars?
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Tickford?
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Not Tickford !
Yes ! it's B135MX with delivery date 9th January 1940 !
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Coach work by Park Ward?
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Yes ! Coach work by Park Ward and rebuild in the 60's !
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That's confusing. In your reply #30 you said you knew the owner who was perhaps the builder, so I assumed it was not made by a known coachbuilder. I suggested in my reply #34 that it had the looks of Park Ward. Is there anything else you need to solve this puzzle, because I think that Djetset has finalised everything?
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Bentley Continental body by Facel?
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Not by Facel !
The original car by Park Ward looks like this cars :
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Let's clear this one up a bit. We are talking about a former 1940 Park Ward Bentley, probably a 4.25 L model, that has been rebodied in the sixties by its owner ? So it's not rebodied by an established coach builder ?
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Let's clear this one up a bit. We are talking about a former 1940 Park Ward Bentley, probably a 4.25 L model, that has been rebodied in the sixties by its owner ? So it's not rebodied by an established coach builder ?
Thanks for this request - I was getting confused as well!
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Bump....
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Bump....
Good afternoon SACO. I see you still visit the site, but maybe you could consider moving some of your puzzles? ;)
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Yes ! a 1940 Park Ward Bentley modified in the 60's
I know the owner but I don't know if he was himself the coach builder !
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Is anybody SURE this vehicle started as a 1940 Bentley? The Windshield and cowl formation scream late 1950s early 60s Mulliner Park Ward Bentleys especially with what appear to be subdued peak finned rear fenders.
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No! just a 40's chassis !
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Now that you're back Saco, may we have a hint to help solve this ?
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Lagonda ?
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Not a Lagonda !
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It's a Bentley n° B135MX modified in the 60's !
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Leslie Arnott?
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Not Leslie Arnott !
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I've found this car for sale in 1967 by well-known Rolls/Bentley specialists Frank Dale & Stepsons. The adverts in consecutive months do not mention the person or company responsible for the bodywork.
Is this the name you're looking for?
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Here is a copy of the advert which shows a side view of the car.
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I think it’s time to wrap up this old puzzle !
Perhaps Mr Gilmore of Belfast for the body ?
1 point for nicanary ! :)
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Thank you for the point. I don't think I really solved the puzzle, and I wonder whether we will ever find the full story. It's certainly not a Belfast registration. The way I read the caption to the car, Mr Gilmore bought the car with the modern body in poor condition and intended to rebody it in the style of Eddie Hall's well-known road/race car. I don't think it confirms that he ordered the body as shown in the puzzle.
I e-mailed the Bentley Drivers Club for information, but have not received a reply. This is quite usual for many owners' clubs.
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The registration FYH537 is the continuation of the number of the 2 Bentleys in color ( FYH535 and FYH536 )!
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They were issued in London in late 1939.
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Further information - my posted advert was from 1967, which doesn't seem very long ago to me, but it's over 50 years, so I suppose the car could have deteriorated over the years. It had just been refurbished in 1967 so I guess Mr Gilmore didn't buy it till some time later.
On the DVLA site, it's shown as a green Bentley with a 2940cc (!) engine. It was first registered in November 1993 so I assume that it was off the road for some time with the number plate on retention. It has been untaxed since August 2016.
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I contacted the Bentley Drivers Club and then the W O Bentley Memorial Foundation to see what they know. The answer is nothing. They confirmed that the original car was bodied by Park Ward and they knew that it had been rebodied, but have no record of the builder. They have no record either of Mr Gilmore of Belfast completing his intended Eddie Hall replica. I suspect the car is lounging in Mr Gilmore's garage slowly rotting into the floor.
I live in Belfast, curiously enough, but have never seen this car.
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For some reason I didn't notice that a name had been given in this thread. I knew one Sidney Gilmore of Belfast who used to race a Bentley 4¼ Special at BDC Silverstone. He also had a Lea-Francis which is how I came to know him. I'll PM such details as I have, nicanary.
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Sidney Gilmore did build the Hall Bentley replica , I am told it is not a faithful copy of the Hall car
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Sidney Gilmore did build the Hall Bentley replica , I am told it is not a faithful copy of the Hall car
It was possibly the special that AllanL saw racing at Silverstone.
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Ok only just seen this…but as the owner of FYH535 see the color picture I feel qualified to comment.
The vehicle in question B135MX was originally bodied by Park Wark and sold to Frank? Moore of Moore & Wright Sheffield Ltd, the sale was through Jack Barclay Ltd London, as were B125MX, FYH535 and B201MX FYH536. It has a similar body to these. At some point in the early 1960’s it was re-bodied with the new saloon body from the photos and possibly fitted with independent front suspension, however this is only a deduction from the front on photos. It was sold in this condition by specialist dealer Frank Dale (here it will be worth asking them for their records) in this condition and eventually acquired in a sorry state by Mr S Gilmore (of Belfast) in 1994 whom set about making a copy of the E R Hall car, however this car had to my knowledge three different body configurations during its racing life, apparently Mr Gilmore has chosen the Tourist Trophy specifications, see the model held in Wroxton. Apparently this work is finished, although no contemporary photos are yet evident. However recorded as seen by Bernard King in 2009. Do have a look at similar conversion also a re-body B180MR.
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Wow, great new information. I have the last known address of the Gilmore family in Belfast and have always intended to visit the house to enquire and possibly obtain a photo of the car as it now is.
We still don't know who built the modern body in the 1950s/60s - as you suggest, maybe Frank Dale's records go back that far. I was kind of hoping the Gilmores might know. However, what with the pandemic and the current high infection rate in NI I am loath to start knocking on doors.
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I have e-mailed Frank Dale's. Please - nobody else do so, or they may get annoyed ;D.
PS very fast response - unfortunately their files before 1970 were destroyed in a flood. Their online archive does not give any relevant information.
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I have spoken with Mr Gilmore's son and he confirms that the bodywork in the puzzle photo was on the car when purchased. He doesn't know the name of the coachbuilder but apparently parts of the body are still in their possession in a workshop/lockup complex in Belfast and he has promised to check for any sign of a coachbuilder's plate attached to it.
The car no longer exists. The front suspension was from a Mark 6 Bentley, the chassis was extensively lightened and altogether Mr Gilmore reckons the original car had been butchered. Sidney Gilmore has another 3.5 litre Bentley and the special seen racing in the 60s was built from this car and parts of the puzzle car. The engine gearbox and transmission from the puzzle car was sold to someone in Oxford and he has built a special from these parts and it retains the registration of the puzzle car, although the Gilmore family retain the chassis plate.
I have been promised additional photos of the car as seen in "our" photo.
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Interesting how this time of year allows one to look at things!
Did you ever get to see the additional photos?
FYH537 (the Oxford car with the VRM) according to the DVLA is a Green “Bentley” which was first registered in November 1993, (I suspect when Mr S Gilmore purchased it) stating year of manufacturing is 1940, with a Registration document last issued on 17/7/2014. It has not been taxed since 1/8/2016 and there are no MOT records!
Big point the engine is listed as 2940cc which if true is not a Bentley likely Ford V6 if cc correct or a BMW straight 6, thus the only Bentley bit could be the gearbox and rear axle! However a conversation plate would have to be made to mate them together much more likely that the transmission is from the engine manufacture.
So would appear sadly the only thing in reality left is the registration number which should really be with the chassis.
A sad demise. Which stops the ambition to photo FYH535, 6, 7, 8 and Composer Lloyd-Webber’s FYH539 (a mkV) together!
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Sadly I haven't heard any further from the Gilmore family. IMHO there's always a limit to how far you can intrude into people's lives and not become a nuisance. I have decided to leave things as they are and if I hear any more it will be a bonus.