Topic: ADG 78

[75america]

What is this?

An additional point up for grabs if you can come up with some proof from a reliable source in which formula this particular car raced (the source must be different from mine because I have doubts my source, although rather reliable, is correct with its identification.)

[75america]

Up to Expert level.

[nicanary]

I can't be sure, but that looks like a typical Italian Formula Junior car (the wheels are too fancy for the UK), and I'm going to guess - 1961 De Tomaso?

[75america]

It is indeed a De Tomaso from around that period.  But my source (which I doubt is correct on this) mentions it's from another Formula.
Can you prove this is a Formula Junior car? (I also doubt that class is correct.)

[nicanary]

Research has brought up an interesting fact of which I was not aware. In late 1960, when the formula had just about died a death, Alessandro de Tomaso showed the press a Formula 2 car, Conrero-Alfa powered. It raced just once, at the Modena GP, where it crashed. It was later rebuilt as an F1 car for the 1961 season. Could this be it?

It does not seem to be one of the "bona fide" F1 cars raced by the team in the '61 season, and looks very new in the photo, just as if it was being shown for the first time. And the Formula Junior cars of the period 1960/61 from de Tomaso did not have that appearance.

PS - I have just found a (poor) picture of Roberto Bussinello racing his de Tomaso-Alfa Romeo in the 1961 Italian GP, and it has the twin bulges in the rear engine cover which I assume meant the motor was canted to reduce height. The puzzle picture, which is also not very clear, also shows two bulges in the same position. Does this suggest that this car is also Alfa-powered, and that it could be the mystery F2 car ?

[75america]

This is exactly what I try to find out!
This car is equipped with an Alfa Romeo Giulietta engine (I have a picture that proofs this)
My source identifies this car as a De Tomaso F1 car, but it looks different to the 2 De Tomaso F1 cars that were equipped with an Alfa Romeo engine (Chassis numbers F1-003 and F1-004).
I do not have a picture of the De Tomaso F2 (Chassis F2-001) car (or at least not identified as such) that was powered by an Alfa Romeo engine, so I wonder if this might indeed be this F2 car.

Who can proof this?
(The book "De Tomaso The official racing history" by Philippe Olczyk or another source might provide some more info, but I unfortunately don't have any De Tomaso book at my disposal)

That F2 car was after its crash repaired and the Alfa engine was swapped (again) with an Osca unit.  I wonder if the Giulietta engine was then used for the F1 car with chassis F1-004, because I can't found back were the engine was coming from.  As far as I can trace it back, Conrero delivered only 2 engines: 1 for the F2 car and one for the F1-003 car...

[nicanary]

A brief glance at the records for 1961 show that two cars were frequently entered in F1 races that were powered by Alfa-Romeo engines. Chassis F1-004 was entered by the factory for Roberto Bussinello and chassis F1-003 by Scuderia Serenissima for Nino Vaccarella. The archives seem to indicate that they both arrived for the race, and took part when they qualified. So there definitely were 2 Alfa-engined cars.

I also do not have the de Tomaso history. In his A-Z of Formula Racing Cars, David Hodges reckons the F2 re-appeared for the new F1 season in 1961, and personally I reckon they rebuilt the crashed car and sold it to Scuderia Serenissima as a new one. I have no further information, I'm afraid. As I said before, that photo shows an unpainted body - so it's either the F2 car when first built, or the rebuilt car in F1 guise before painting.

To make things more complicated, one car was entered in GP races as F2-001 in the early part of the season, but then mysteriously disappeared from the entry sheets - and it had an Osca engine !

[75america]

Yes, as I already stated: “That F2 car was after its crash repaired and the Alfa engine was swapped (again) with an Osca unit”

I so far reconstructed the history of this F2 car (from Giulietta engine point of view) as follows:

At the VI Gran Premio di Modena held on 2 October 1960, Automobili De Tomaso entered a F2 car based on an Isis (is this correct?) chassis (chassis number F2-001), which basically was a Cooper chassis but with a front suspension containing wishbones shock absorbers and a torsion bar.  Oddly, the car was equipped with drum brakes on the front and disk brakes at the rear.  A 4-speed gearbox was linked to an Alfa Romeo Giulietta engine that replaced the Osca engine with which the car was presented with earlier on in the season at the II Grand prix de Bruxelles in Belgium. Virgilio Conrero tuned the Giulietta engine by enlarging the bore to 79 mm, which resulted in an engine capacity increase to 1470 cc.  The engine delivered 143 hp at 6800 rpm and 155 Nm of torque at 5500 rpm.
Driver Roberto Bussinello failed to qualify with the De Tomaso - Alfa Romeo due to an accident he had during practice.  The car was later on raced again, but again powered by an Osca engine.

Additions and corrections are more than welcome!

[nicanary]

The Brussels GP was in April 1960, and the Modena GP in October. That's a really long wait for a second appearance - at Brussels there was "no practice time recorded", and I'm guessing the car was simply there for "press" purposes. Alessandro de Tomaso was renowned as a self-publicist.

Do you have any sort of date for the puzzle photo?

[75america]

As I wrote in my previous post, the car was indeed only presented in Brussels.

Unfortunately, there is not mentioned in my source when the picture was taken.

[D-type]

This is exactly what I try to find out!
This car is equipped with an Alfa Romeo Giulietta engine (I have a picture that proofs this)
My source identifies this car as a De Tomaso F1 car, but it looks different to the 2 De Tomaso F1 cars that were equipped with an Alfa Romeo engine (Chassis numbers F1-003 and F1-004).
I do not have a picture of the De Tomaso F2 (Chassis F2-001) car (or at least not identified as such) that was powered by an Alfa Romeo engine, so I wonder if this might indeed be this F2 car.

Who can proof this?
(The book "De Tomaso The official racing history" by Philippe Olczyk or another source might provide some more info, but I unfortunately don't have any De Tomaso book at my disposal)

That F2 car was after its crash repaired and the Alfa engine was swapped (again) with an Osca unit.  I wonder if the Giulietta engine was then used for the F1 car with chassis F1-004, because I can't found back were the engine was coming from.  As far as I can trace it back, Conrero delivered only 2 engines: 1 for the F2 car and one for the F1-003 car...

Given Mr O's reputation, I would advocate another source every time!

[75america]

Given Mr O's reputation, I would advocate another source every time!

I fully agree with you, but somehow, he manages to get his hand on rare period pics (...except for the cars he 'discovered', that is...)
So perhaps in his De Tomaso book, original period pictures of the F1 and F2 cars are present as well.

[D-type]

 
As this is a request for information rather than a puzzle, is it worth promoting this to the Pros?

[75america]

As this is a request for information rather than a puzzle, is it worth promoting this to the Pros?

I awarded a point to nicanary for his 'De Tomaso F1' answer.
Now I move it to Pro level to see if there is someone who can proof this (preferably with some additional info) with another source than mine.  (Still one additional point to earn)

[nicanary]

On an Alfa Romeo site I found this photo of a car owned by an enthusiast in Portland, Oregon. He says that his car was suitable for F1 and F2, but knows nothing more. It's obviously a de Tomaso of the 1960/61 period, but the exhaust position does not tally with the puzzle photo. I just thought it was interesting - I have seen other photos of such a car unpainted outside the works, again with the exhaust in that position.

[Paul Jaray]

I'm sure Curami's book (La Sport e i suoi Artigiani) is one of your sources.
There is the same pic and a big one of the engine.

[75america]

Yes "La Sport" is the source I took the photo from.

[D-type]

Remember that the Formula 1 rules changed in 1961.  In 1960 a Formula 1 car was 2¹/₂ litres whilea Formula 2 car was 1¹/₂ litres.  Then in 1961 a Formula 1 car was 1¹/₂ litres. 

Consequently former Formula 2 cars such as the De Tomaso were now eligible for Formula 1 races in 1961.  As there were several non-championship races these provided a stage where minor players like the De Tomaso could make an appearance.

[D-type]

My apologies for stating the obvious in my previous post.  On re-reading the thread I realise that everyone posting knows the formulae

In Grand Prix Cars 1945-65 Mike Lawrence states that there were at least six F1 De Tomasos, including the 1960 F2 prototype.  Engines were either OSCA or Conrero-modified Alfa Romeo in 1961 but others were fitted later.
 
In 1963 at Vallelunga 6 cars appeared:
F1-002 (Maserati engine) - Roberto Lippi
F2-001, the prototype, (Maserati engine) - Gastone Zabnarotti
F1-801 (De Tomaso flat-8) - Estefano Nasif
F1-003 (Conrero Alfa Romeo) - 'Condor'
F1-001 (OSCA) - Rovero Campello
F1-005 (Holbay-Ford) - Franco Bernabei

Later Lippi had a Ferrari 65° V6 Dino engine in his car

The chassis numbers suggest that there was one more, F1-004.  This corroborates with David Hodges in A-Z of Formula Racing Cars who says that six cars were produced, 4 with OSCA engines and 2 with Conrero Alfa-Romeo engines and that the 801 was a totally new car.  He says that the rebuilt 1960 F2 car was one of the six.
Like all racing cars, these probably carried on racing in minor formulae for some years and any of the chassis could have been fitted with a reduced capacity Giulietta engine for Formula Junior

In 1962 De Tomaso produced a Formula Junior car with a Ford Holbay engine and in 1964 ran one of the chassis as a F2 car with a 1 litre Ford-based engine.

Unfortunately none of this brings us any nearer to identifying the puzzle car.  I'll keep digging.

[Carnut]

Moving to the Black Hole...