Topic: Geography test or automotive knowledge?

[fromwien]

I am very conscious of not making myself particularly popular with my comments, but I would like to express the concern that soon only the puzzlesetters will be perceived as people interested in automobiles, and geographical rather than vehicle-specific questions are increasingly asked to solve puzzles.

I would understand, if geographical questions were limited to continents. But today, people are asking about places within a radius of a few kilometers!

Apparently the point becomes an end in itself! This way, 'AutoPuzzles' has no longer anything to do with automotive knowledge, best becomes 'GeoPuzzles'.

Example: Puzzles about cars, that were produced in countries that didn't have a lot of car production (Austria, Monaco, Andorra, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg,,..etc..) get relatively easy be solved by geo-questions. Without any automotive knowledge. Is that the goal of today's 'AutoPuzzles'?

Trigger for this statement: I listed a rare vehicle. The nine questions with this puzzle were geographical ones, not a single one related to the vehicle!
I have to admit that I'm definitely no longer looking for rare vehicles to waste them as geography puzzles

[nicanary]

Most experienced members have a database. If they can establish the country of origin, it is a lot easier to cross-reference that database - e.g. 3-wheel car, 1920s, Austria makes it much simpler than researching every 3-wheeler ever made in the world.

It can get a lot worse. Just wait till you get asked "was the factory west of Paris, north of the Loire but south of the Seine?" It happens, I can assure you. If the puzzlers don't get the parameters set at a manageable level, some puzzles would take years to solve.

Yes, it is frustrating. I'm afraid I have to resort to it sometimes.

[gte4289]

Most experienced members have a database. If they can establish the country of origin, it is a lot easier to cross-reference that database - e.g. 3-wheel car, 1920s, Austria makes it much simpler than researching every 3-wheeler ever made in the world.

Exactly. And this is especially helpful when the puzzle image is so blurred and grainy that very little physical detail (the very stuff that often helps point to a particular country, region, and/or coachbuilder) can be determined.

[fromwien]

Most experienced members have a database. If they can establish the country of origin, it is a lot easier to cross-reference that database - e.g. 3-wheel car, 1920s, Austria makes it much simpler than researching every 3-wheeler ever made in the world.

Exactly. And this is especially helpful when the puzzle image is so blurred and grainy that very little physical detail (the very stuff that often helps point to a particular country, region, and/or coachbuilder) can be determined.

I think you can imagine, why these (time-consuming) image changes are necessary until the image can no longer be easily found by using 'image-reverse-search'.
By the way, if you don't see a detail clearly, you could ask for it! I. e., 'Is that a Volkswagen rim?' Such a question is exactly 'AutoPuzzles' suitable, in contrast to the processing and exclusion of all countries

[Wendax]

As far as I know there is no rule delimiting the character of questions, but on the other hand the puzzle owner is free to refuse answering questions that he thinks are inappropriate or ruining his puzzle. A little statement like "no geographical questions more detailed than continents/countries/whatever" in the first post will do the job, without blaming the puzzlers for asking "evil" questions.

[nicanary]

As far as I know there is no rule delimiting the character of questions, but on the other hand the puzzle owner is free to refuse answering questions that he thinks are inappropriate or ruining his puzzle. A little statement like "no geographical questions more detailed than continents/countries/whatever" in the first post will do the job, without blaming the puzzlers for asking "evil" questions.

Good point.

[gte4289]

I think you can imagine, why these (time-consuming) image changes are necessary until the image can no longer be easily found by using 'image-reverse-search'.
By the way, if you don't see a detail clearly, you could ask for it! I. e., 'Is that a Volkswagen rim?' Such a question is exactly 'AutoPuzzles' suitable, in contrast to the processing and exclusion of all countries

Did you just edit my post to insert your response?

[fromwien]

Sorry, mistakingly done
corrected

[gte4289]

Sorry, mistakingly done
corrected

No need to apologize; I assumed it was by mistake. I just didn't realize that users without 'Editor' permissions were capable of editing the posts of others.

[fromwien]

Most experienced members have a database. If they can establish the country of origin, it is a lot easier to cross-reference that database - e.g. 3-wheel car, 1920s, Austria makes it much simpler than researching every 3-wheeler ever made in the world.

It can get a lot worse. Just wait till you get asked "was the factory west of Paris, north of the Loire but south of the Seine?" It happens, I can assure you. If the puzzlers don't get the parameters set at a manageable level, some puzzles would take years to solve.

Yes, it is frustrating. I'm afraid I have to resort to it sometimes.

I totally agree in every word with you
On one hand, we have the most expierienced Puzzlers with their databases built up over many years, and on the other hand, puzzle vehicles that are far too difficult to solve for rookies and experts, who are just taking part to pass the time.
The gameplay focuses mainly on 'Professional-' and 'Master-section'. Of course I understand, if a puzzler uses its advantages (database) as best as possible, but most of the active players are slowly approaching the master section now. I notice by myself, as hard it is, to play there without any database and just want to play for fun. I'm very curious to see how many players will still stick around then. And offer new puzzles.. Or whether only four to five steadfast players will still remain

[fromwien]

Sorry, mistakingly done
corrected

No need to apologize; I assumed it was by mistake. I just didn't realize that users without 'Editor' permissions were capable of editing the posts of others.

Me too! Felt really astonished to see what happened

[fromwien]

As far as I know there is no rule delimiting the character of questions, but on the other hand the puzzle owner is free to refuse answering questions that he thinks are inappropriate or ruining his puzzle. A little statement like "no geographical questions more detailed than continents/countries/whatever" in the first post will do the job, without blaming the puzzlers for asking "evil" questions.

That would of course be an good idea, but it would take away almost any chance for the 'rookies' and 'experts' to solve (mostly way too complicated) puzzles. The geo-problem starts in this player-section, where automotive knowledge rather than a database should lead to the solution of a puzzle

[Wendax]

There is no way to prevent the use of databases, puzzler's own or general ones online. I'm an old fashioned guy without a personal data base, just books, magazines, and online search experience. The closest thing to a database I have is a handwritten list of all the brands in Georgano's encyclopedia, just name and years of existence, ordered by country. I made it some 40 years ago when I bought that book. 😄

[sichel]

There is no way to prevent the use of databases, puzzler's own or general ones online. I'm an old fashioned guy without a personal data base, just books, magazines, and online search experience. The closest thing to a database I have is a handwritten list of all the brands in Georgano's encyclopedia, just name and years of existence, ordered by country. I made it some 40 years ago when I bought that book. 😄

 

Edit: That is also my method. You have to remember what is written where and where you saw which photo. That trains your memory!
Good for people who are older than 60 ;-)

[fromwien]

There is no way to prevent the use of databases, puzzler's own or general ones online. I'm an old fashioned guy without a personal data base, just books, magazines, and online search experience. The closest thing to a database I have is a handwritten list of all the brands in Georgano's encyclopedia, just name and years of existence, ordered by country. I made it some 40 years ago when I bought that book. 😄

Not to misunderstand each other:
I have nothing against databases and their use. Of course everybody can use them  whenever she/he wants. I actually think, databases are great, especially even published. I can well imagine how much work goes into them, for which I have far too less of time.
My only idea behind -undoubtedly not very popular- was simply to reduce the advantages of using databases by limiting geo-questions. Which are only of marginally interest for auto-maniacs (like me).

[gte4289]

And this is especially helpful when the puzzle image is so blurred and grainy that very little physical detail (the very stuff that often helps point to a particular country, region, and/or coachbuilder) can be determined.

I think you can imagine, why these (time-consuming) image changes are necessary until the image can no longer be easily found by using 'image-reverse-search'.

I can't speak for everyone here, but I don't find it particularly difficult to provide clear images that aren't reverse-searchable. In fact, you often state that your puzzles aren't sourced from online, yet you seem to be the only one whose images are so intentionally obscured as to lack any identifying detail. This, combined with an apparent distaste for answering questions, creates the impression that your goal is to generate unsolvable puzzles. And if so, that's your prerogative, it's just not much fun.

[gte4289]

To your credit, I just looked and some of your more recent puzzles are clearer than usual. 

[fromwien]

To your credit, I just looked and some of your more recent puzzles are clearer than usual. 

Believe me, me too don't feel happy by modifying pictures. I hope, you show some understanding, why I think about its necessity. Otherwise it doesn't seem useful to me to select cars that are relatively well known and can be found easily on the internet. I don't want to post only complete unknown vehicles that will eventuallly end up in the 'Masters-' and the 'Black Hole-section'.

I am always open for any questions to any detail of puzzle cars and will try to answer them as best I can with all my knowledge. 

[fromwien]

I would like to try an experiment setting up new puzzles with the following text:

Please be so kind and identify this vehicle: ...
Please no more geography questions, as soon as the puzzle arrives the Master-section

Please be so kind and tell me, if this is within the AutoPuzzles rules or not.

I am aware, as dangerous restrictions are. I don't think they are good in principle. But internet has changed the puzzle-situation a lot (see reverse-image-search, thousands of websites to collect pictures of rare cars,...). My goal is only to achieve better equal opportunities for even non-professional car-maniacs. And that they remain loyal (with a little fun) to the AutoPuzzles site

[Wendax]

Your puzzle, your rules.