Author Topic: To bring more movement into the puzzle process  (Read 544150 times)

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Online nicanary

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Re: To bring more movement into the puzzle process
« Reply #100 on: April 20, 2023, 01:41:13 PM »
I didn't realise we had any social media platforms! I'm also concerned that if we get a large influx of new members , the site will lose its friendly ambience. Plus of course we're running out of solvable puzzles.  ;D
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Offline Carnut

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Re: To bring more movement into the puzzle process
« Reply #101 on: May 05, 2023, 07:08:41 AM »
The nature of the puzzles has changed fairly radically over the last few years.  The vast majority of the cars I know anything about have already been puzzled (many more than once!) so the emphasis has switched to more vintage puzzles, something I know little about.

And as I said in a PM to nicanary, many long-time members have disappeared as I believe once they become Professionals they hit a brick wall and can't answer very many puzzles at all. They can no longer participate on any board so just pack their bags and leave; e.g. Djetset - and me..

The only way to allow many of our longer-term members back in would be to change all the boards and categories so that puzzlers can participate after achieving far fewer points than the current system allows.  Also I would prefer to see the Masters category abandoned and change all the Masters back to Pro's again so they can have a lot more fun too.

We've haemorrhaged nearly all our longer term members; they're still there on the members list but they never log on any more. And whilst we do see new members not very many of them have the vast knowledge of those who've made it all the way to the Masters, so disappear after a few weeks.

I don't know how much longer the site will last without changes, which might be too late to retrieve any very valuable lost members anyway?
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Offline Carnut

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Re: To bring more movement into the puzzle process
« Reply #102 on: May 14, 2023, 07:11:14 AM »
I would like to remind again on my suggestion for improvement of August 22, 2021:
The situation, as it is:
1) Almost no new puzzle has been solved in the 'rookie category' for months.
2) The puzzles slowly move into the 'Experts-category', where they remain until they are solved or forever.


I just want to remind you again that without more movement, the site will have no future.
However, there will be no shortage of a number of new puzzles. I could guarantee for that. Thousands are left


We really appreciate all your new puzzles fromwien.  But as you yourself have said several times, it's important to keep them moving up to give more members the chance of trying to solve them.

I note the Rookies section could almost be renamed the fromwien section; you have puzzles there which have been dormant since January!  How about getting them on the move?!
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Offline fromwien

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Re: To bring more movement into the puzzle process
« Reply #103 on: May 14, 2023, 04:28:57 PM »
Unfair as usual, but very easy to reply:
Of the current 104 puzzles in 'Rookie-section' are more than the half of them (54) 'fromwien-puzzles'. Only 3 'fromwien-puzzles' are older than 8 weeks (see attachment)!

But 8 of the other remaining ones of all other players are far older

At least I try my best, to ensure that as many puzzles as possible are available in each guessing group (+/- 100). If I wanted to fill up the Experts group, the entire gameplay would only take place there.

Here is the distribution of my puzzles in relation to the total number per section:

Rookie-section: 54/104
Expert-section: 11/135
'Professional-section': 58/89
'Master-section': 10/306

If I would lift up my puzzles, only half of the puzzles would be available in the rookie-section and only one third left in the professional-section. I could only prevent that, if I keep adding more and more new puzzles. Then the site would loose more and more its variety

To describe it even more complex: It is also my concern or attempt to offer something for every player of every vehicle category (saloons, sports cars, race cars, trucks, buses, micro-cars, etc..) in every puzzle-section
« Last Edit: May 15, 2023, 09:05:44 AM by fromwien »

Offline fromwien

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Re: To bring more movement into the puzzle process
« Reply #104 on: May 26, 2023, 06:03:09 AM »
I would like to remind again on my suggestion for improvement of August 22, 2021:
The situation, as it is:
1) Almost no new puzzle has been solved in the 'rookie category' for months.
2) The puzzles slowly move into the 'Experts-category', where they remain until they are solved or forever.


I just want to remind you again that without more movement, the site will have no future.
However, there will be no shortage of a number of new puzzles. I could guarantee for that. Thousands are left


We really appreciate all your new puzzles fromwien.  But as you yourself have said several times, it's important to keep them moving up to give more members the chance of trying to solve them.

I note the Rookies section could almost be renamed the fromwien section; you have puzzles there which have been dormant since January!  How about getting them on the move?!
Following your instructions, please check the result after about two weeks:

Here again is the distribution of my puzzles in relation to the total number per section:

Rookie-section: 48/96
Expert-section: 19/154
Professional-section: 44/66
Master-section: 15/305

All that has changed is that there is now a very strong unequal number of puzzles available in the different groups, because most of the other puzzle-setters don't move their puzzles up from Experts to Professionals. No supply of puzzles for Professionals and Masters from Experts. Soon I will only be able to check only my own puzzles in Professionals-section.

Offline gte4289

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Re: To bring more movement into the puzzle process
« Reply #105 on: August 05, 2023, 06:10:16 PM »
Some thoughts...

Improving the flow of puzzles
Instead of creating a (difficult to enforce) rule that users must move their puzzles up within certain time limits, I propose the following:
  • Draft and post official AP "guidelines/suggestions" for creating and moving puzzles (e.g., suggest moving up after 1-4 weeks, depending on interest/activity at current level), making it clear that these are only suggestions;
  • Develop internal guidelines to determine when neglected puzzles should be moved up by editors (e.g., send courtesy msg to puzzle creator if puzzle is inactive for ~3 months; move up one level if still inactive after ~6 months, etc);
  • Editors should be permitted to use their own judgement, to 'police' puzzles only when they have free time to do so or when an old puzzle has been brought to their attention, etc.
Some existing puzzles have not been moved up, despite having remained dormant for several years. I will gladly volunteer to help clean these up.

Merging levels
I don't see how this will help solve any of the issues.

Distribution of puzzles across various levels
I see no point in trying to maintain an even distribution of puzzles across the various levels. For example, why should we park difficult puzzles at the Rookie level for extended periods of time when there is virtually no interest/activity at that level? Which brings me to...

Rookies
As stated above, there is virtually no interest/activity at this level, which means AP isn't attracting new users. Holding difficult puzzles at this level for long periods of time isn't a solution. It seems obvious, but AP must 1) draw in more first-time visitors, 2) provide the entertainment necessary to retain a percentage of those visitors, and 3) continue to do both of these things in perpetuity. I can't tell you how to bring in more traffic, but I do know that the way to entertain those visitors once they're here is with puzzles featuring clear, full-color images of (newer) cars that are less obscure, yet are still interesting and/or visually appealing.

The Black Hole
This is a terrible name that suggests the puzzles contained therein are hopelessly unsolvable. (Yes, I realize that some of them are.) It should be renamed to "Double Points Puzzles" or something similar, with a focus on opportunity as opposed to hopelessness. And any BH puzzles that have been rendered unsolvable by missing images and disappearing creators should be removed.

And lastly...

"Mystery" puzzles
Whenever the solution to a puzzle is a mystery to the puzzle creator, that puzzle should be posted in a separate section titled "Automotive Mysteries" or something similar and should offer triple points. Solving an actual automotive mystery without the benefit of asking unlimited questions is worthy of a greater reward in my opinion. If some information is known to the creator, the puzzle can begin in the ordinary sections until partially solved (for a point) and then be moved to the Automotive Mysteries section.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2023, 06:38:16 PM by gte4289 »

Online nicanary

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Re: To bring more movement into the puzzle process
« Reply #106 on: August 06, 2023, 06:11:54 AM »
FYI the latest new member was Hamkraus who joined in November 2022!!!!!!
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Offline Carnut

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Re: To bring more movement into the puzzle process
« Reply #107 on: August 08, 2023, 05:58:18 AM »
Thanks Wayne. Some good ideas there.

I can see why there is so little interest amongst the Rookies.  So many of the puzzles are now very much from bygone eras and the interest generally amongst car enthusiasts for those days is minimal. They are too hard for Rookies - and they do stay there for far too long..

The different levels is a problem.  I enjoyed AP immensely when I was a Rookie and loved it when I graduated quite quickly to an Expert.  But as a Pro now I can very rarely get involved; so rarely in fact that even when I can I can barely be bothered..  And that is the crux of it for all those who joined in earlier days, say from 2007 to 2016, when we had a huge number of active members.  Once they graduated to Pro they lost interest one by one and now we never see them.  I know that if we didn't have levels the same really knowledgeable players would answer all the puzzles, but frankly it's better that way than them all languishing forever in the lower boards until everyone's lost interest in them.

Some of the Editors are very rarely (or never) on here any more, so I would be happy to promote someone like gte to Editor status and then he can join in discussions about the future and would be given the power to enact some of his ideas, like jogging posters to move puzzles or even move or remove some of them himself.

What about it Editors?
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Re: To bring more movement into the puzzle process
« Reply #108 on: August 08, 2023, 06:06:18 AM »
I would welcome Wayne as an editor. He puts a lot into this site.

BTW as you may know I have asked the main culprit to move some puzzles which are blocking the Experts, but he knows they will be solved quickly in the pros and is loathe to take action.
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Offline Wendax

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Re: To bring more movement into the puzzle process
« Reply #109 on: August 08, 2023, 06:39:01 AM »
I would appreciate gte4289 becoming an editor.

Offline Carnut

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Re: To bring more movement into the puzzle process
« Reply #110 on: August 08, 2023, 10:11:50 AM »
I would welcome Wayne as an editor. He puts a lot into this site.

BTW as you may know I have asked the main culprit to move some puzzles which are blocking the Experts, but he knows they will be solved quickly in the pros and is loathe to take action.

Isn't the idea on AP to solve puzzles though?!  I really can't get my head around people posting puzzles they are reluctant for anyone to solve!

It's like this blurring of pictures so people can't see them properly.  Some I can't even look at.  I know difficult puzzles can be more fun but what's the point in actually stopping people from being able to see them?!
« Last Edit: August 08, 2023, 10:14:27 AM by Carnut »
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Re: To bring more movement into the puzzle process
« Reply #111 on: August 08, 2023, 04:28:31 PM »
It's like this blurring of pictures so people can't see them properly.  Some I can't even look at.  I know difficult puzzles can be more fun but what's the point in actually stopping people from being able to see them?!
I strongly agree! I enjoy working on puzzles that are difficult to solve due to the obscurity of the vehicle, but it's frustrating when the difficulty arises from not knowing what the puzzle vehicle even looks like.

I keep reminding myself that puzzlers are free to create puzzles in any way they see fit, and that we're free to choose which puzzles to solve and which to ignore. However, it can be incredibly frustrating when the biggest offender is also one of the most prolific puzzlers.

Offline gte4289

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Re: To bring more movement into the puzzle process
« Reply #112 on: August 08, 2023, 04:31:18 PM »
Some of the Editors are very rarely (or never) on here any more, so I would be happy to promote someone like gte to Editor status and then he can join in discussions about the future and would be given the power to enact some of his ideas, like jogging posters to move puzzles or even move or remove some of them himself.

What about it Editors?
I would welcome Wayne as an editor. He puts a lot into this site.
I would appreciate gte4289 becoming an editor.
Thank you all. I would be happy to join the team.

Offline fromwien

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Re: To bring more movement into the puzzle process
« Reply #113 on: September 21, 2023, 04:44:03 PM »
With following "gte4289-suggestions" I absolutely cannot deal with:

Develop internal guidelines to determine when neglected puzzles should be moved up by editors (e.g., send courtesy msg to puzzle creator if puzzle is inactive for ~3 months; move up one level if still inactive after ~6 months, etc);
Editors should be permitted to use their own judgement, to 'police' puzzles only when they have free time to do so or when an old puzzle has been brought to their attention, etc.

It seems to be a phenomenon of the times that instead of simple, democratic rules for everyone, it would be better to authorize some people to take individual actions towards other people.
Would it then be obligatory for the puzzle-creator to take a puzzle to the next level if an editor points that out? Or do she/he have to deal with the editor about it? Or does it the editor on his own if the puzzle-creator won't do it by himself? I'm looking forward to being able to follow these special actions as an outside observer, as I will immediately delete my account (perhaps to the delight of some fellow players), if such individual rules will come up.

Offline fromwien

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Re: To bring more movement into the puzzle process
« Reply #114 on: September 21, 2023, 05:18:31 PM »
„Back to the past“ or „Back to the future“?

Unfortunately, everyone who has been playing here for 15 years or more has neither recognized the signs of the times nor the courage and willpower to make changes. But a lot has changed in the last 15 years, which should have been responded to:

1) The automobile has taken on a different status in public. AutoPuzzles-site can't correct that, but we have to bravely face the perception

2) The attempt to introduce young people to automobile history is in its infancy and is sometimes carried out only half-hearted. You can only have a very limited effect on this with AutoPuzzles, but you are simply confronted with this unpleasant situation

3) For everyone who has been playing for 15 years or more, all questions and most of the players (+/- 25) are familiar. For rookies, including myself as I have only been playing for more than two and a half years, there is a huge barrier to getting into the game. At first I didn't recognize any puzzle-object, even though I've been in the automotive scene for a very long time. The entry level is far too high. The puzzle-vehicles are completely uninteresting for rookies. If you just want to join in for the good mood or evening entertainment, you have no chance of guessing. Why?
Because no real rookie puzzles are offered. Almost every player chooses puzzles that should withstand all levels. Why? Because the few active players are gathered at the professionals and masters level. And you know in advance that mostly the puzzles will end up there.
In addition, most of the few players are extremely automobile-infected that usually they don't think, that  the puzzles are as difficult, sending rookies cold shivers down the spines.

4) Why did you lose so many professionals? I'm happy to tell you: For months I only had around 20 ancient puzzles at my disposal because nothing came along except my own puzzles, which, among other things, helped only "gte4289" promoted to the Masters. So much for balance, another factor of democracy that I miss here more and more.

5) Attractiveness of the site? Every young puzzler I would encourage to play doesn't like the old-fashioned design of the site at all. A matter of taste. Of course, if you've been used to the site for 15 or more years, this won't matter. But you shouldn't be surprised that young people aren't taking part.

6) After a certain period of getting used to it, rookies find themselves faced with overpowering long-time-players who they believe, they can never defeat and give up. Why? Because the long-time-players use question parameters that match their databases, they have built up over the years, which means they can reach their goal quickly.

7) It is no longer a game played by pure car enthusiasts, but rather by people interested in cars, who have spent years browsing the Internet with a lot of effort and meticulousness, finding all sorts of pages with car information, that you cannot find in any literature. I still approach solving the puzzles using simple means. With my own knowledge and an huge archive of books and magazines. But the website hunters are far superior to me. I can't keep up with them. Maybe also a reason why so many people who are really interested only in cars and hate internet-searching stopped playing?
The site has developed into an elite car-connoisseur club and stucks there. It's only luck, if within a year a new a player steps up and stays, not just to disappear soon again.

8) "Search by image" changed everything. As far as I can remember, although I'm not confident with the computer-world, this didn't exist 15 years ago.
Criticism of altering images: Haven't editors created rules about pictures can be changed? As long as puzzle-creators stay within these rules, there shouldn't be any problems? If there are any, the editors should simply change the rules. Hardly it can be the puzzle-creators mistake, if he she/he alters the picture within the rules? Or is it?

9) I recently enjoyed watching solved puzzles set by BERTRAND:
The puzzles with the altered images (i.e. from color to black and white) were solved much less often than the other with unaltered images, which were very easy to find using “Search by image”. Strange, right?
Are all players really honest? I could imagine that some rookies, who have less experience of searching on the Internet, will use this unauthorized image search function at some point, to get once some feel of luck.

10) As I pointed out, I have no computer knowledge whatsoever. But: Can’t the use of “artificial intelligence” also help solving puzzles? Is it legal at AutoPuzzles to use it? Is anyone already using “Artificial Intelligence”? Are there any experiences?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2023, 02:36:06 AM by fromwien »

Offline fromwien

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Re: To bring more movement into the puzzle process
« Reply #115 on: September 22, 2023, 02:21:06 AM »
Addendum:
ad 7) The site is called 'AutoPuzzles'. Why you don't allow only automobile-specific questions? Shouldn't the one with the best eye and feeling for design and detail get the point? Sometimes I feel like a geographic teacher. These geographical questions have nothing to do with puzzle-cars. And are annoying. Just like the boring alphabet questions. Then I feel like I'm guessing in a usual quiz show. Nothing to do with cars. Guessing also means landing lucky punches. These are, in particular, most important for rookies and experts, if they try phishing for points in the Professional- and Master-area. Strengthens  courage and self-confidence. Isn't it about guessing? Shouldn't have everyone a chance solving a puzzle, even if she/he doesn't have large databases and libraries in the background?

Example: If you have a look at the puzzle 'Wendax 4081', you can see how many suggested questions come up, if you leave out the geographical questions (there were only three, one even from myself). 251 replies, 2781 views. This is the game, how "AutoPuzzles" works for everybody
« Last Edit: September 23, 2023, 04:15:30 AM by fromwien »