Topic: Google Image Search

[Carnut]

Sure most of you have seen the on-going discussions, some of which have been taking place in one of Wendax's puzzles, which isn't really quite the right place!  And since we can't post in the Editors' section we need a thread here.

The Image Search is nothing new as there was TinEye before, albeit it was pretty useless.  The new Google Image Search is much better but is widely seen as a cheat, as it's not a test of automotive knowledge at all, simply a test of how good one is with a computer.

What is the general consensus?  Otto is having a look at how its use can be contained but does anyone have any ideas of how it can be banned?

[pnegyesi]

You can't ban such things. I'd really like to see Otto having 470+ points again. If he used an aid - I say good for him. You can't prevent using various gimmicks.

Therefore I'd suggest that we let those brave guys (and possibly ladies) who post puzzles wrestle with TinEye, Google Image Search et. al. and make their pictures un-identifiable for them all.
I don't know the solution to that, yet, but I am working on it

[Paul Jaray]

I'm writing and rewriting this reply over and over again, trying to find the right words.
I'll make it simple:
I consider this the best place and source of information on the net and the chance to take a piece of your knowledge is the only thing I can gain from it....I will not get money for my solved puzzles.
The fact that this is also a game make it perfect, you put your knowledge in it, you force the others to fill in the blanks and you have fun!
There's no point in cheating and I felt what Otto is feeling when I solved a puzzle after Allemano told me in which book he was taking his puzzles. It was simply stupid...
But when you find a car after pages and pages of questions, because you remember that in a book there was a line regarding that model you never saw before...well, that's a thrill.
For our friends without a library to look into, the net is still the hunting field, but are you happy to fish from a barrel?
If you are, you can keep an eye on my puzzles, because I don't think I'm going to get mad to change a pic.
This is a game, you can chose to be a player or not.

[Carnut]

What it boils down to is why are we here:  to win points only or to take part in the search for the elusive answer (and often learn lots in the process)?

[Ray B.]

As I said in a reply to Otto Puzzell about this ( http://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/index.php?topic=17511.msg176716#msg176716 ) "apparently, it doesn't work for me with Safari on my Mac." I tried once or twice after I had read his mea culpa, gave up, ad felt kind of relieved that it didn't.
Otherwise , I think that I fully agree with Paul.
In a game, the fun is in playing, not in cheating, that's all.

[Wendax]

What it boils down to is why are we here:  to win points only or to take part in the search for the elusive answer (and often learn lots in the process)?

In my case it is a combination of several aspects. It surely started with the thrill of collecting points for applying one's own knowledge. When reaching Expert level, the possibility of posting puzzles was added. I started with some cars I knew and of which I hoped nobody else or at least hardly anybody would know. After experiencing the very high level of knowledge the active members of this forum do have, I found it challenging to look for cars so far unknown to me, of which I hoped they would be obscure enough. The time span they managed to stay unsolved even at Pro level was a measure of obscurity. This aspect is gone now. I surely have learned a lot about historic and obscure cars by looking for solutions as well as for puzzles. I don't want to miss this. But when the time you spend in order to find a challenging puzzle is not matched by an equivalent amount of time your puzzle stays on this site, it is frustrating. And I'm sure there will be tool users at Rookie level, too. I know we can't ban these tools, but for my part I can say that the time of simple identification puzzles based upon pictures from the web is almost over.

[Carnut]

I surely have learned a lot about historic and obscure cars by looking for solutions as well as for puzzles. I don't want to miss this. But when the time you spend in order to find a challenging puzzle is not matched by an equivalent amount of time your puzzle stays on this site, it is frustrating. And I'm sure there will be tool users at Rookie level, too. I know we can't ban these tools, but for my part I can say that the time of simple identification puzzles based upon pictures from the web is almost over.

I couldn't agree more.
It often takes many hours of research to find these puzzle cars that haven't appeared before, and which are often unknown to me before I find them, only to find them solved in minutes is extremely frustrating and I often resolve to back off posting; but then this site is addictive and I find myself starting again after a very short time, because the searching is such fun!

[Joćo]

only to find them solved in minutes is extremely frustrating and I often resolve to back off posting

Second that!

From now on,only books and magazines.

[Allemano]

I think many of the said things are true, but isn't it only human to use this tempting tool?
It annoys me that at the end of the day you really can't tell if you have a "fair" or a "foul" player who has solved your puzzle (unless he/she is a little awkward in asking...)

The effort to find new and obscure puzzles was at least as enjoyable as it was to solve challenging puzzles. To know that it's a matter of seconds now to disclose these mysteries makes it impossible for me to go on like this.

[Otto Puzzell]

I surely have learned a lot about historic and obscure cars by looking for solutions as well as for puzzles. I don't want to miss this. But when the time you spend in order to find a challenging puzzle is not matched by an equivalent amount of time your puzzle stays on this site, it is frustrating. And I'm sure there will be tool users at Rookie level, too. I know we can't ban these tools, but for my part I can say that the time of simple identification puzzles based upon pictures from the web is almost over.

I couldn't agree more.
It often takes many hours of research to find these puzzle cars that haven't appeared before, and which are often unknown to me before I find them, only to find them solved in minutes is extremely frustrating and I often resolve to back off posting; but then this site is addictive and I find myself starting again after a very short time, because the searching is such fun!

Consider, if you will, that I too have painstaking crafted puzzles, only to have them solved almost immediately, by the owner of a particular piece of printed source material. But I soldiered on.

After dabbling with the Google image search for a few weeks, I was struck by the fun it was sapping from the puzzle posters, and stopped. Using the Google tool was a shameful thing for me to do. It cheapen the labor of love that is creating puzzles and watching them worked slowly, over time. It is indeed antithetical to everything this community was built upon.

When it became apparent to me that others were using the same tool, and saw the fun that was being deprived of the puzzle posters, I knew I had to speak up. The points penalty I took was not just for the points I collected using the tool, but for the fun it deprived others.

I'm sorry I uncorked the genie, and wish I could put it back. I am not the only person to have used use the tool, but my shame is my own, and cannot be expected to cause others - rookie or otherwise - to play fair.

[Amsterdam]

only to find them solved in minutes is extremely frustrating and I often resolve to back off posting

Second that!

From now on,only books and magazines.

Most of the cars in my books and magazines already featured here on AP.   This new search engine kills my opportunity of making any new puzzles as indeed, it works very well.
I tried it on several puzzles today and the answers where very easy to find.
I am certainly not going to reply on these puzzles as I cannot feel any pride coming up with the solution this way.
I can't help it, but this development makes me kind of sad, and I believe it is going to make this high level autopuzzle site even harder and for many almost impossible to participate when only rare books an magazines will be used.
Sure, I completely understand this decision, but far less puzzles will be posted and only the best of pro's will be able to solve a puzzle once in a while.
Sad but true indeed. I am afraid the AP experience as it was for me is over.

[Ultra]

There has to be a way to put a filter or alter the image in some way that prevents the search engine from coming up with matches.

Now there is a puzzle for you.......

[pnegyesi]

http://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/index.php?topic=17974.0

This image was originally available in Google Images. Now it is not

[Ultra]

http://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/index.php?topic=17974.0

This image was originally available in Google Images. Now it is not

Nice.



Does judicious cropping work?

[neilshouse]

This, for me is terrible news, I don't have a database of obscure cars or an extensive library and 90% of the puzzles I have solved have been found by searching the internet, the search is often much more rewarding than the point gained by solving the puzzle, I'm sure most of you here have been on a 'voyage of discovery' by trying to identify a car online and then going off at a tangent discovering a previously unknown world of cars, i.e. (for me anyway) American sportscars of the 50s or French Barquettes.
I'm not sure what the answer to this is, does the Google tool still work if the photo is heavily cropped, or changed from colour to b&w?
Otto, I don't think you have to feel any shame, and your self inflicted penalties are very harsh, if I had discovered the Google tool I think I would have used it for a while too before realising that it's taking the fun and interest out of the puzzles, and that's what Autopuzzles is all about.
Damn you Google!

[Amsterdam]

http://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/index.php?topic=17974.
This image was originally available in Google Images. Now it is not

Sorry to say. save the picture, turn it into black and white let it search ...and the damm thing found it again. 
I tried several things already but if you really want too, it will find it.

[Ultra]

I would give Otto his points back but that would cause a tiff between myself and the best partner I could wish for.

I do think his frankness about the situation is commendable and I hope his self flogging is short lived.

I knew sooner or later technology would make this puzzle solving easier.  I just think that makes for more interesting puzzles.  I remember Otto's Imperial taillight.   That was a GREAT puzzle and it could easily be duplicated thousands of times over with various automotive details.  I know there were some hood ornament puzzles as well.

Lamenting the growth of technology is a pointless endeavor.  Let us instead strive to create puzzles the likes of which technology is unprepared to help us solve.

My 2¢.  Yours free of charge.

[pnegyesi]

Amsterdam: I downloaded my tweaked picture, converted to greyscale and no, Google Image still did not find it. Did you do something else?

[Wendax]

Lamenting the growth of technology is a pointless endeavor.  Let us instead strive to create puzzles the likes of which technology is unprepared to help us solve.

I absolutely agree. I made a spontaneous attempt today with the "Ice Ice Baby" puzzle and I wasn't astonished to see all 20 pictures identified within hours, but I was glad to see that the connections I have in mind can't be found by a tool. There needs to be some tuning as the connections aren't always car related, some are just disguised as car puzzles, but I can feel the fun coming back. Auto Puzzles won't be the same again, but it is certainly not dead.  

[Carnut]

Perhaps a start could be made by preventing the up-loading of puzzles from the AP site?
Like flickr for instance, when you right click you're prevented from copying the picture to your computer.  That way the pictures couldn't be copied into Google Image Search.

There are ways round it of course, but it could help?...

[Wendax]

As you say, there are many ways to make the copying possible (thanks to Google, for example). And wouldn't it be schizophrenic, if a site that benefits so much from the possibility to copy pictures doesn't permit it itself?

[Otto Puzzell]

Does judicious cropping work?

Cropping, rotating, and changing hues all help. I'm putting together some tips on for tools that allow for the easy manipulation of pictures in this way.

Re: filters. Yes, I think a strong enough watermark would prevent this from working most of the time, but would also make the recognition of pictures much more difficult for those who are solving them the old fashioned way.

[Amsterdam]

Amsterdam: I downloaded my tweaked picture, converted to greyscale and no, Google Image still did not find it. Did you do something else?

Nope, just the conversion to black and white and there it was.
I just read about this cheating search today and spent some time trying to avoid google from finding the answers. but no luck.
Most modifications are reversable or are not allowed by the AP rules

[Ultra]

AP "rules" are going to be morphing and adapting with technology.

[Carnut]

As you say, there are many ways to make the copying possible (thanks to Google, for example). And wouldn't it be schizophrenic, if a site that benefits so much from the possibility to copy pictures doesn't permit it itself?

I see your point, but perhaps it could just apply to unsolved puzzles?  Puzzles from the Solved board could be copied, because after all no-one would want to be Image-Searching those!