Author Topic: Terrorism In Russia  (Read 2670 times)

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Offline MG

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Terrorism In Russia
« on: March 29, 2010, 10:48:37 AM »
Faksta, what's going on over there?  I don't believe any of the news outlets in the West to report accurately on Russia.  What's your take?  ???
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Offline Ultra

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Re: Terrorism In Russia
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2010, 12:06:05 PM »
 Secession Is the Key to Peace

Posted by Lew Rockwell on March 29, 2010 05:35 AM

We are hearing much about the bombings in the Moscow subways, where suicide bombers murdered dozens of people. These are called “Islamic terrorists,” but while the people of Chechnya are Muslim, that is not the source of their response. They want their freedom from colonial domination. Russia conquered this people in the 18th century. They have been oppressed by tsars and commissars. Stalin murdered them by the trainload, ethnically cleansing them because the communists could not control them. The Chechens want self-determination, and that is their right. It was not, of course, called terrorism when the post-communist Russians destroyed the entire capital of Grozny, and murdered many thousands of civilians, with non-suicide bombers. The Chechens are wrong to respond in a governmental fashion. But Russians have been wrong for more than two centuries to occupy and murder these people, who have never accepted the foreign slave collar. Stop the governmental and private terrorism. Russia out of Chechnya!
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Offline faksta

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Re: Terrorism In Russia
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2010, 12:43:04 PM »
Two suicide women bombers have exploded themselves on two stations of our underground - Lubianka (the one near FSB headquarters) and Park Kultury (the one near the headquarters of strategic missile forces). Reported now are 38 people murdered and around 100 injured, including 3 foreigners. I thought such things are in the past...

P.S. Is Rockwell an idiot?  ???
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 12:51:32 PM by faksta »

Offline Ultra

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Re: Terrorism In Russia
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2010, 01:10:05 PM »
P.S. Is Rockwell an idiot?  ???

Not in my opinion.

 I don't anything about what is going on over there.  Gonna turn on Russia Today right now and start hearing their take on it.
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Re: Terrorism In Russia
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2010, 01:33:38 PM »
Some quick background reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurgency_in_the_North_Caucasus

============================================

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5409248,00.html

Moscow bombings underline the grim situation in the North Caucasus
 
People walk across the Moskva River
Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift: Monday's attack killed at least 38 people and disrupted subway travel in Moscow
Russian security officials have linked Monday's two terrorist bombings in Moscow to the North Caucasus, and analysts in Russia are far from convinced the region has stabilized, as Moscow had claimed.
 

No group has yet claimed responsibility for the two Moscow subway suicide bombings carried out on Monday morning, which killed at least 38 people and injured more than 60, but Russian government officials have blamed rebels in the Caucasus region.

Islamist separatists from Chechnya are believed to have been behind two deadly attacks in the Moscow subway six years ago, and Chechen rebels claimed responsibility for a fatal bombing on a Moscow-St. Petersburg train late last year.

The North Caucasus has been a thorn in Russia's side since the break-up of the Soviet Union.

In the beginning of 2010, the Kremlin decided to incorporate six of the seven North Caucasus republics into a single North Caucasus Federal District. Russian President Dmitry Medvedev named  Alexander Khloponin as his federal representative in the region, as well as vice-premier of the Russian Federation.

portraits of people killed in Beslan massacreBildunterschrift: Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift:  The Beslan massacre was one of Russia's worst terrorist attacks

The new "chief of the Caucasus" was meant to stabilize the region and improve its economy. But the post lacks the  powers necessary to accomplish that, said Russian expert on international relations Sergei Markedonov, adding that Moscow has taken a completely false approach to the problem.

"No investor will come into a region where people are kidnapped, where both sides exercise violence and where corruption has reached violent levels," he said.

'Fear, betrayal, immorality and corruption'

The political situation in Chechnya is also far from stable, according to Svetlana Gannushkina from the Russian human rights organization Memorial.

The Russian government last year declared the situation in Chechnya to be "normalized." But the transfer of power to current Chechen President Ramzan Kadyrov has not even come close to accomplishing that goal, and the situation continues to be out of the government's control, Gannushkina said.

"It saddens me to hear officials speak of stability in connection with Chechnya and Kadyrov, when there is no stability in Chechnya," she said. "Only fear, betrayal, immorality and corruption rule there."

Svetlana GannushkinaBildunterschrift: Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift:  Gannushkina says Russia lacks a policy toward North Caucasus

The region has also seen a growing radical Islamist movement, culminating in the 2004 Beslan hostage crisis, in which more than 330 people were killed, said Alexander Rahr, Russia expert with the German Council on Foreign Relations.

"I believe that that the Islamist terrorists could possibly be supporting themselves with structures like al-Qaida, because someone has to supply the weapons and the necessary logistical support," he told German broadcaster Deutschlandfunk.

Little hope for peace

Political expert Viktor Mizin from the Institute of Strategic Assessment in Moscow believes the conflict in the Caucasus could last much longer, and that "only when Russia changes its attitude will we be able to see how the Caucasus can be governed."

Mizin said he expected that, after a period of time, Khloponin will leave his current position and be given a high-ranking post in the Kremlin, after which Moscow will once again break up the North Caucasus Federal District.

Svetlana Gannushkina also sees little chance of peace in the North Caucasus.

"Russia does not even have a North Caucasus policy," she said. Certain measures are being taken "with the goal of salvaging the empire at any price, and even in some cases rebuilding it."

=====================================================

Now, with all of that consumed, I stand with Lew.  I usually do.  The violence is wrong.

 Secession Is the Key to Peace
“Honi soit qui mal y pense”


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Offline faksta

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Re: Terrorism In Russia
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2010, 01:56:11 PM »
I won't go down in disputes here, it's useless, but I see that Rockwell doesn't know a thing about Caucasian problem.

Offline Ultra

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Re: Terrorism In Russia
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2010, 03:51:06 PM »
The article was from a German newspaper and the links weren't from Rockwell either.
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Offline faksta

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Re: Terrorism In Russia
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2010, 05:35:55 PM »
I understood. I was referring to the same text as previously. It is very upsetting that many people still believe these fairytales about 'poor Chechen people'.

Offline Ultra

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Re: Terrorism In Russia
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2010, 05:43:20 PM »
I understood. I was referring to the same text as previously. It is very upsetting that many people still believe these fairytales about 'poor Chechen people'.

Do you believe in consent of the governed?
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Offline MG

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Re: Terrorism In Russia
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2010, 06:30:04 PM »
Hey, Faksta. What IS the truth as you know it to be in your country.

We here in the US have a "situation" where Islamic terrorists want to murder us in our beds. Are these Islamic terrorists or "freedom fighters" as Ultra suggests?   ??? Or is there any discernible difference between the two?   

You are the only Russian citizens I actually know, so I am depending on you to tell me what the real story is.    ;)
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Offline pnegyesi

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Re: Terrorism In Russia
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2010, 11:20:17 PM »
I am not a Russian citizen, but living fairly close :)

There are two sides here with zero tolerance towards each other. You can't just say, let the "poor Chechen people" go their way. It's like, let the Taliban do their thing, it's their country. People if Chechnya (and the surrounding nations) are stuck in the 19th century
But the "solution" which Russia proposed -opress them 'til they budge - is counter-productive. However, from a Russian perpsective they have no other choice. The "we slowly embrace them and show how marvelous the 21st century is, come and we elevate you" is not working in those regions.

How can you keep a vast, and both ethnically and economically diverse country together? Would you like New Mexico or Texas become an independent country, just because the Hispano population doesn't like white power?
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Re: Terrorism In Russia
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2010, 11:37:23 PM »
Would you like New Mexico or Texas become an independent country, just because the Hispano population doesn't like white power?

I don't care what their reason is, yes most definitely.  If the people of Texas, New Mexico, the Taliban in Afghanistan or any other geographic region, anywhere around the globe, wish to be an independent country then I am all for it.  Otherwise, by default, you are governing people against their will.  That is a certain recipe for eventual civil unrest and violence.  Consent of the governed and secession are the keys to any and all attempts at real peace.
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Offline MG

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Re: Terrorism In Russia
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2010, 06:17:25 AM »
Quote
Would you like New Mexico or Texas become an independent country, just because the Hispano population doesn't like white power?

Living quite far away from that part of the country, I would LOVE to see the "good ol' boys" (meaning white men) in those two states deal with the change!    :lmao: :hah:

Pnegyesi, I am most impressed with your response. How like the US view of the Vietnamese 50 years ago: We're gonna liberate the shit out of you! Or our rather haughty outlook on Afghanistan presently: We're gonna bomb them UP to the Stone Age!

Ultra is quite correct, imho. The problem with his notion is that it ignores the enormous pull of patriotism, which is part of human DNA. Its like saying that if you are not happy with your present spouse, just go find another one. Its actually a great idea and one I subscribe to. Life's too short to spend it with someone who makes you unhappy, right?  But that also flies in the face of one of the most bedrock social policies - marriage.

When I was practicing law, my basic approach was to try to mediate every situation I got involved in. Two people can find a solution to any problem that is far more workable in practice than ANY handed down by a court. But the parties are often so intransigent, so determined to inflict their point of view on the other that compromise and conciliation are the last thing they want to hear. Stupidity, thy name is home sapiens. In fact, it's enough to make you wonder if the scientific name for our species ought not to be changed to homo dumbassius!   ???

Good thread, guys.    :applause:
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Offline faksta

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Re: Terrorism In Russia
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2010, 07:58:59 AM »
The situation is very moderate. It is even hard to say who is the conquered one - we or they. Most of the crimes in Moscow are commited by the ever-present Caucasians nowadays - they control the drugs, the weapons, the sluts, the robbers and beggars in subway... The small crimes are also very often commited by them, it is a way of living for some - they're used to what they do in their own region. They respect their old people, but they can easily rob, beat or even kill our greybeard or even a child. There's no smoke without fire, right?

At the same time I know some of them as really kind people who would always help you. They are just as much different as any other ethnic group, and not all of them are willing to separate. There are always some people who want to and some who don't, in any country.

If the yesterday's 'action' was an attempt to make those people live better, they surely didn't care about what happened to themselves - some of their compatriots were beaten yesterday on the streets, there was a panic among the people, they were afraid of women in paranjas and Caucasian men with big sports bags... The aim was surely a panic. It is a very sad situation.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2010, 08:01:34 AM by faksta »

Offline Ultra

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Re: Terrorism In Russia
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2010, 09:59:16 AM »
The violence is so wrong and does nothing but weaken any reason anyone could ever have for supporting any cause, in this case or any other.
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Offline Allemano

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Re: Terrorism In Russia
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2010, 10:35:22 AM »
It's the same all over the world. All official news are filtered resp. censored. As I worked in Frankfurt's new airport I met a guy who was working for a security team. In his earlier life he was a soldier for the German troops near Kunduz. It happened that he and his companion shot two little kids which were drilled to assassins. His buddy immediately commited suicide where he himself had to retire for mental strains.

Except of those who were directly involved, we, the 'normal' people, can hardly imagine what it really means to be on war.
And the politicians try to keep us as ignorant as possible! Not only in Russia — all over the world.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2010, 11:18:51 AM by Allemano »

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Re: Terrorism In Russia
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2010, 11:08:20 AM »
My wife has a little sign in our kitchen that says:

When the power of love is stronger than the love of power, peace will prevail.

I think Jesus said something like that. But it is amazing how many people who SAY they are followers of Jesus do not heed His words.    :(

Justice at the point of a gun is no justice at all.    :-X
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Re: Terrorism In Russia
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2010, 11:21:16 AM »
The Categorical Imperative works fine as well!