Author Topic: From Neo-cons To Nut Cases  (Read 5158 times)

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Offline MG

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From Neo-cons To Nut Cases
« on: February 28, 2010, 08:02:17 AM »
Even while drifting around the Caribbean with 3000 other rich, flabby white Americans last week, I was aware of the wingnut who flew his airplane into the IRS office in Austin TX. Oddly, there seems to be little said about in the news. I guess people are more concerned with killer whales that kill?   ::)

One commentator has been thinking about this, though, and I want to share his thinking with you. This is the kind of stuff that get's Ultra fired up, so I expect at LEAST one response!   ;D


February 28, 2010
Op-Ed Columnist
The Axis of the Obsessed and Deranged
By FRANK RICH

No one knows what history will make of the present — least of all journalists, who can at best write history’s sloppy first draft. But if I were to place an incautious bet on which political event will prove the most significant of February 2010, I wouldn’t choose the kabuki health care summit that generated all the ink and 24/7 cable chatter in Washington. I’d put my money instead on the murder-suicide of Andrew Joseph Stack III, the tax protester who flew a plane into an office building housing Internal Revenue Service employees in Austin, Tex., on Feb. 18. It was a flare with the dark afterlife of an omen.

What made that kamikaze mission eventful was less the deranged act itself than the curious reaction of politicians on the right who gave it a pass — or, worse, flirted with condoning it. Stack was a lone madman, and it would be both glib and inaccurate to call him a card-carrying Tea Partier or a “Tea Party terrorist.” But he did leave behind a manifesto whose frothing anti-government, anti-tax rage overlaps with some of those marching under the Tea Party banner. That rant inspired like-minded Americans to create instant Facebook shrines to his martyrdom. Soon enough, some cowed politicians, including the newly minted Tea Party hero Scott Brown, were publicly empathizing with Stack’s credo — rather than risk crossing the most unforgiving brigade in their base.

Representative Steve King, Republican of Iowa, even rationalized Stack’s crime. “It’s sad the incident in Texas happened,” he said, “but by the same token, it’s an agency that is unnecessary. And when the day comes when that is over and we abolish the I.R.S., it’s going to be a happy day for America.” No one in King’s caucus condemned these remarks. Then again, what King euphemized as “the incident” took out just 1 of the 200 workers in the Austin building: Vernon Hunter, a 68-year-old Vietnam veteran nearing his I.R.S. retirement. Had Stack the devastating weaponry and timing to match the death toll of 168 inflicted by Timothy McVeigh on a federal building in Oklahoma in 1995, maybe a few of the congressman’s peers would have cried foul.

It is not glib or inaccurate to invoke Oklahoma City in this context, because the acrid stench of 1995 is back in the air. Two days before Stack’s suicide mission, The Times published David Barstow’s chilling, months-long investigation of the Tea Party movement. Anyone who was cognizant during the McVeigh firestorm would recognize the old warning signs re-emerging from the mists of history. The Patriot movement. “The New World Order,” with its shadowy conspiracies hatched by the Council on Foreign Relations and the Trilateral Commission. Sandpoint, Idaho. White supremacists. Militias.

Barstow confirmed what the Southern Poverty Law Center had found in its report last year: the unhinged and sometimes armed anti-government right that was thought to have vaporized after its Oklahoma apotheosis is making a comeback. And now it is finding common cause with some elements of the diverse, far-flung and still inchoate Tea Party movement. All it takes is a few self-styled “patriots” to sow havoc.

Equally significant is Barstow’s finding that most Tea Party groups have no affiliation with the G.O.P. despite the party’s ham-handed efforts to co-opt them. The more we learn about the Tea Partiers, the more we can see why. They loathe John McCain and the free-spending, TARP-tainted presidency of George W. Bush. They really do hate all of Washington, and if they hate Obama more than the Republican establishment, it’s only by a hair or two. (Were Obama not earning extra demerits in some circles for his race, it might be a dead heat.) The Tea Partiers want to eliminate most government agencies, starting with the Fed and the I.R.S., and end spending on entitlement programs. They are not to be confused with the Party of No holding forth in Washington — a party that, after all, is now positioning itself as a defender of Medicare spending. What we are talking about here is the Party of No Government at All.

The distinction between the Tea Party movement and the official G.O.P. is real, and we ignore it at our peril. While Washington is fixated on the natterings of Mitch McConnell, John Boehner, Michael Steele and the presumed 2012 Republican presidential front-runner, Mitt Romney, these and the other leaders of the Party of No are anathema or irrelevant to most Tea Partiers. Indeed, McConnell, Romney and company may prove largely irrelevant to the overall political dynamic taking hold in America right now. The old G.O.P. guard has no discernible national constituency beyond the scattered, often impotent remnants of aging country club Republicanism. The passion on the right has migrated almost entirely to the Tea Party’s counterconservatism.

The leaders embraced by the new grass roots right are a different slate entirely: Glenn Beck, Ron Paul and Sarah Palin. Simple math dictates that none of this trio can be elected president. As George F. Will recently pointed out, Palin will not even be the G.O.P. nominee “unless the party wants to lose at least 44 states” (as it did in Barry Goldwater’s 1964 Waterloo). But these leaders do have a consistent ideology, and that ideology plays to the lock-and-load nutcases out there, not just to the peaceable (if riled up) populist conservatives also attracted to Tea Partyism. This ideology is far more troubling than the boilerplate corporate conservatism and knee-jerk obstructionism of the anti-Obama G.O.P. Congressional minority.

In the days after Stack’s Austin attack, the gradually coalescing Tea Party dogma had its Washington coming out party at the annual Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC), across town from Capitol Hill. The most rapturously received speaker was Beck, who likened the G.O.P. to an alcoholic in need of a 12-step program to recover from its “progressive-lite” collusion with federal government. Beck vilified an unnamed Republican whose favorite president was the progressive Theodore Roosevelt — that would be McCain — and ominously labeled progressivism a cancer that “must be cut out of the system.”

A co-sponsor of CPAC was the John Birch Society, another far-right organization that has re-emerged after years of hibernation. Its views, which William F. Buckley Jr. decried in the 1960s as an “idiotic” and “irrational” threat to true conservatism, remain unchanged. At the conference’s conclusion, a presidential straw poll was won by Congressman Paul, ending a three-year Romney winning streak. No less an establishment conservative observer than the Wall Street Journal editorialist Dorothy Rabinowitz describes Paul’s followers as “conspiracy theorists, anti-government zealots, 9/11 truthers, and assorted other cadres of the obsessed and deranged.”

William Kristol dismissed the straw poll results as the youthful folly of Paul’s jejune college fans. William Bennett gingerly pooh-poohed Beck’s anti-G.O.P. diatribe. But in truth, most of the CPAC speakers, including presidential aspirants, were so eager to ingratiate themselves with this claque that they endorsed the Beck-Paul vision rather than, say, defend Bush, McCain or the party’s Congressional leadership. (It surely didn’t help Romney’s straw poll showing that he was the rare Bush defender.) And so — just one day after Stack crashed his plane into the Austin I.R.S. office — the heretofore milquetoast former Minnesota governor, Tim Pawlenty, told the audience to emulate Tiger Woods’s wife and “take a 9-iron and smash the window out of big government in this country.”

Such violent imagery and invective, once largely confined to blogs and talk radio, is now spreading among Republicans in public office or aspiring to it. Last year Michele Bachmann, the redoubtable Tea Party hero and Minnesota congresswoman, set the pace by announcing that she wanted “people in Minnesota armed and dangerous” to oppose Obama administration climate change initiatives. In Texas, the Tea Party favorite for governor, Debra Medina, is positioning herself to the right of the incumbent, Rick Perry — no mean feat given that Perry has suggested that Texas could secede from the union. A state sovereignty zealot, Medina reminded those at a rally that “the tree of freedom is occasionally watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots.”

In the heyday of 1960s left-wing radicalism, no liberal Democratic politicians in Washington could be found endorsing groups preaching violent revolution. The right has a different history. In the months before McVeigh’s mass murder, Helen Chenoweth and Steve Stockman, then representing Idaho and Texas in Congress, publicly empathized with the conspiracy theories of the far right that fueled his anti-government obsessions.

In his Times article on the Tea Party right, Barstow profiled Pam Stout, a once apolitical Idaho retiree who cast her lot with a Tea Party group allied with Beck’s 9/12 Project, the Birch Society and the Oath Keepers, a rising militia group of veterans and former law enforcement officers who champion disregarding laws they oppose. She frets that “another civil war” may be in the offing. “I don’t see us being the ones to start it,” she told Barstow, “but I would give up my life for my country.”

Whether consciously or coincidentally, Stout was echoing Palin’s memorable final declaration during her appearance at the National Tea Party Convention earlier this month: “I will live, I will die for the people of America, whatever I can do to help.” It’s enough to make you wonder who is palling around with terrorists now.
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Offline Otto Puzzell

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Re: From Neo-cons To Nut Cases
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2010, 08:13:12 AM »
DC-loving media efforts to portray them as nut-bags notwithstanding, I believe the average "Tea Party" participant has beliefs much like your own, MG.
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Offline MG

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Re: From Neo-cons To Nut Cases
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2010, 09:03:12 AM »
I think so to, Senor Puzzell. But I don't identify with people who fly their airplanes into buildings, whether they are Islamicists or good ol' Americans from the heartland. I also don't own a gun and have no intention of acquiring one. I cringe at people who say the public should take a 9 iron to the back windshield of government. That sort of overheated rhetoric just roils the waters without promoting clarity of thinking and without having a specific plan for a way forward. Other than just burning the place down and starting over. that is.

I sometimes fantasize about what would happen if a group of scholarly and learned people were sitting in Philadelphia THIS summer, writing a new Constitution for America. What would it say? What things that we hold sacred now would be left out? And which left in? And which new ones added? Its an interesting intellectual exercise, and one that will get you admitted to the local psychiatric hospital if you engage in it too long!    :D
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Re: From Neo-cons To Nut Cases
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2010, 11:27:38 AM »
More Rich bloviation about things he doesn't understand.

I also don't own a gun and have no intention of acquiring one.

Is there any indignity that could be heaped upon you that would change your outlook?  Did you carry in Vietnam?

Is violence okay merely because the state sanctions it?  Is violence only okay merely if state sanctioned?

Thanks for the props. 

The Glen Becks and Sarah Palin's are trying to co-opt the Tea Party folks to the establishment, much as was done to Reagan when Bush was forced as VP and Baker as Chief of Staff in 1980. 

Ron Paul is a man of principle who would please the Tea Party faithful.  If he got elected he would be executed ala JFK.

« Last Edit: February 28, 2010, 01:13:45 PM by Ultra »
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Re: From Neo-cons To Nut Cases
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2010, 07:28:33 PM »
Saw this on the Lew Rockwell blog. Had to laugh.

Quote
Writes John Dennis about a once-influential columnist at a once-influential newspaper:

In case you haven’t seen this, Frank Rich shrieks in horror as Americans begin to realize that they aren’t on this earth to be DC debt slaves.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/

=========================================================

This fits here:

Jefferson vs Lincoln: America Must Choose

by Josh Eboch
    

Over the course of American history, there has been no greater conflict of visions than that between Thomas Jefferson’s voluntary republic, founded on the natural right of peaceful secession, and Abraham Lincoln’s permanent empire, founded on the violent denial of that same right.

That these two men somehow shared a common commitment to liberty is a lie so monstrous and so absurd that its pervasiveness in popular culture utterly defies logic.

After all, Jefferson stated unequivocally in the Declaration of Independence that, at any point, it may become necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them…

And, having done so, he said, it is the people’s right to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Contrast that clear articulation of natural law with Abraham Lincoln’s first inaugural address, where he flatly rejected the notion that governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed.

Instead, Lincoln claimed that, despite the clear wording of the Tenth Amendment,no State upon its own mere motion can lawfully get out of the Union; [and] resolves and ordinances [such as the Declaration of Independence] to that effect are legally void…

King George III agreed.

Furthermore, Lincoln claimed the right of a king to collect his federal tribute, by violence if necessary. Without even bothering to pretend such authority existed in the Constitution, Lincoln offered (and eventually carried out) a thinly veiled threat that beyond what may be necessary for [collecting taxes], there will be no invasion, no using of force against or among the people anywhere.

In the words of Tony Soprano, pay up and nobody gets hurt.

But perhaps, as some have said, Jefferson intended his Declaration merely as a political tool to justify American independence from Britain. He surely would never have acknowledged or defended an individual state’s right to secede from the very union he helped to found. Except that he did, in his own first inaugural.

Upon assuming the presidency in 1801, amidst severe political and sectional turmoil, Jefferson said

    If there be any among us who wish to dissolve the Union or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed, as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it.

In light of these facts, no serious student of history or politics could believe that Jefferson and Lincoln possessed similar visions for America. Or that Jefferson would have condoned the violent subjugation of a single sovereign state (let alone 11 of them), or thought Lincoln’s disregard for the Constitution in any way legal or justified.

Rather, he would have known at once that what Lincoln spawned through his belligerence was a government capable of violating its own fundamental law at will; of using illegal force to prevent the governed from withdrawing voluntary consent (regardless of their motivation), and thereby destroying consent altogether.

Such a government is incapable of liberty, and antithetical to the very existence of Jefferson’s America.

For that reason, it is not possible to truly understand, and yet still admire, the words and deeds of both men. Despite his occasional use of the Declaration’s language, Lincoln himself despised Jefferson; demonstrating by his policies that they occupied polar opposite ends of the ideological spectrum, as do their political descendants today.

But, after decades spent trying to ignore or deny the irreconcilable disconnect between these two figures, the political class has succeeded only in perpetuating the contradictory and inherently dishonest character of modern American government. Though our system is ostensibly rooted in the rule of law and the ideals of liberty, its current nature is really embodied much more accurately by the lawless despotism of our 16th president.

We cannot continue to have it both ways. The preposterous dichotomy between America’s founding principles and the actions of her government, from the War Between the States to the War on Drugs, has predictably eroded that government’s moral standing at home, and its credibility around the world.

As a society, we cannot both revere a man whose fierce dedication to the right of political self-determination formed the philosophical foundations of our republic, and at the same time worship a dictator whose arrogant and bloody denial of that right transformed our republic into an empire.

It is time to choose. If Americans truly are heirs to the Jeffersonian legacy, than it has always been and must always be, not only our right, but our duty as citizens to withdraw consent from any government that becomes destructive of life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness.

If, however, We the People believe ourselves incompetent to judge when that line has been crossed, then we will continue to find no shortage of political masters eager to carry on Lincoln’s legacy of contempt for our Constitution, and violent suppression of self-government.

Either way, one thing is certain: America will never regain the principles of her founding until her people muster the courage and clarity to finally separate liberty’s friends from its foes.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 12:29:17 AM by Ultra »
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Offline MG

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Re: From Neo-cons To Nut Cases
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2010, 04:17:42 AM »
Quote
Did you carry in Vietnam?

No, I did not. A claim that very few veterans of that great debacle can make and one I am inordinately proud of!    ;)

Interesting piece, Ultra. So, is it safe to same that Josh Eboch is your nom de plume?

I never heard of this anti-Lincoln position until I heard it from you about 8 years ago. At the time, I was shocked and dismayed that our Greatest President was so ill used by you. It never even occurred to me that others felt the same way. Why, I read who our country idolized Honest Abe in countless history books while just a lad in school. How disloyal and unAmerica of you to place clouds upon his reputation!   :o

But now, just 8 short years later, I am beginning to come around to your point of view. I always HAVE been sort of a slow learner.    :-[
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Offline Ultra

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Re: From Neo-cons To Nut Cases
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2010, 09:01:59 AM »
Lincoln was reviled in his day. The state has warped what we know of Lincoln in order to aggrandize itself.

Here is all one really needs to know about Lincoln. He was an idol of Hitler's for his methods of using power.
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Re: From Neo-cons To Nut Cases
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2010, 12:20:40 AM »
Frank Rich, Ron Paul and the Battle for the Soul of America

In his Sunday New York Times column, Frank Rich tries to belittle and defames Congressman Ron Paul, because Dr. Paul wants to shrink the size and scope of the federal government. By lumping the former 2008 GOP presidential candidate with the pro-war 2008 GOP vice presidential nominee, Sarah Palin, and militaristic talking head Glenn Beck, who delivered a sharp rebuke of the GOP in his CPAC speech more than a week ago, Rich reveals his true colors: an unapologetic supporter of the welfare-warfare state.

Ron Paul should not be linked to either of these big government conservatives, nor to extremists like Joe Stack, who recently flew a plane into an office building housing the I.R.S. in Austin, Texas, or Timothy McVeigh who bombed a government office building in Oklahoma City in 1995. Frank Rich tires to paint Ron Paul and his supporters as violent, “obsessed and deranged,” and therefore a lunatic fringe that should be ignored as critics of the federal government’s policies, which Rich apparently supports: mass killing overseas, and legal plunder and currency debasement at home. Instead, Frank Rich implies that any criticism of the welfare-warfare state is due to a psychological disorder and therefore “these’ people are really “enemies of the state” and should be monitored very carefully.

Ron Paul has been one of America’s articulate advocates of a constitutional republic in the United State Congress. Dr. Paul supports abolishing the Federal Reserve and ending the income tax. He also favors replacing the entitlement programs with charities, and creating real, sustainable prosperity built on a foundation of savings and investments. Dr. Paul also opposes preemptive war and military adventurism overseas, a policy that fans the flames of hatred for America. In short, Dr. Paul is America’s most outspoken critic of the Empire that is responsible for tens of thousands of innocent deaths overseas and the financial bleeding of our economy.

Frank Rich approvingly cites the dismissive attitude of neoconservatives William Kristol and William Bennett toward Ron Paul and his presidential straw poll win at the CPAC conference. If Mitt Romney had won, their tune would have been a lot different: Romney is the 2012 GOP presidential front-runner. Frank Rich’s “intellectual” soul mates, Kristol and Bennett, join him in battling Ron Paul and the liberty movement for the soul of America.

The clock is ticking on the welfare-warfare state, frightening the likes of Frank Rich and other apologists in the media. So instead of debating the merits of the welfare-warfare state, Rich and his ilk engage in unrelenting character assassination of a decent and patriotic American, congressman Ron Paul of Texas.

There is apparently no insult that Frank Rich and the neoconservative’s pals will not use to undermine the reestablishment of a limited government republic in America. They would prefer to genuflect before the altar of power and gain fame and fortune from the welfare-warfare state apparatus than have the American people live in a free society.

This is reprinted from MurraySabrin.com.

March 2, 2010

Murray Sabrin, Ph.D. [send him mail], is professor of finance in the Anisfield School of Business, Ramapo College of New Jersey. He is the author of Tax Free 2000: The Rebirth of American Liberty. Sabrin is a contributing columnist for www.politickernj.com and blogs at www.jerseyconservative.com.
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Offline GRAYWOLF

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Re: From Neo-cons To Nut Cases
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2010, 09:30:53 AM »
Has there been any credible link between Stack and the Tea Party movement, or is it just the media (with the R's & D's) trying to discredit the movement? They are still trying to discredit Ron Paul with the tying him to Palin & Beck...They can't fight him on issues, so they try to make him look bad by equating him to the rest of the R party.
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Re: From Neo-cons To Nut Cases
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2010, 01:20:42 PM »
Ultra, you know I like Frank Rich, but the critique you posted is right on. When I read it for the first time, I was surprised that Ron Paul was lumped in with those other two lunatics. Guilt by association is very often an effective technique. Its like saying that MG is a writer and that Timothy McVie and Ted Kaczinski are also writers. While the statement is literally true, it makes my look like a dangerous zealot.

And who knows? Maybe I am!?!?!?   :P
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Re: From Neo-cons To Nut Cases
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2010, 02:08:52 PM »
The "establishment" aka the military industrial complex + the Main Stream Media have been conspiring to take this man down. This is because he is perceived as a real threat to their power structures.

Frank Rich is Lincolnian, Straussian disciple who will always be found promoting the debt feeders in DC.
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Re: From Neo-cons To Nut Cases
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2010, 04:48:42 PM »
And who knows? Maybe I am!?!?!?   :P

Coming soon - the MG Manifesto
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Re: From Neo-cons To Nut Cases
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2010, 07:39:04 PM »
 :bag: :nerves: :nod:
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Re: From Neo-cons To Nut Cases
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2010, 04:12:17 AM »

One commentator has been thinking about this, though, and I want to share his thinking with you. This is the kind of stuff that get's Ultra fired up, so I expect at LEAST one response!   ;D

Here's mine. I didn't know this guy Frank Rich but he seems quite clearsighted to me (notwithstanding this exaggerated association you've pointed. I don't know enough of these politicians to have an opinion about that). Seen from outside the USA, what he describes fits the general impression given by what we are observing there, and I find it kind of worrying.

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Re: From Neo-cons To Nut Cases
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2010, 07:21:31 AM »
Thanks for the comment, Ray. One of the things I enjoy about discussions here is that there is input from folks from other places around the world.

I also thought the article had a lot to recommend it, although, as pointed out by others, lumping Ron Paul, who may be the most steadfast champion of the Constitution as originally written we have, together with the other two nut jobs, was patently unfair and unprofessional, imho.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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Re: From Neo-cons To Nut Cases
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2010, 07:58:05 AM »
No offense intended to anyone here, but I'm disturbed by the present administrations attempt at winning the approval of foreign nations' populations. Is that BO's job?

Likewise, I'm sure the elected leaders of EU nations, or of any other nations, don't give a rat's patutti about my approval of them, nor should they.

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Re: From Neo-cons To Nut Cases
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2010, 09:15:21 AM »
I am not sure that my elected president doesn't give a hoot about your opinion, Otto, or at least the opinion of the majority of US citizens. He takes great care of his image.

But my worries are a different matter. Maybe since 9-11, maybe since the Irak war, many people around the world have begun to feel that they were all, in a way, dependent or relying on, or whateve, of your country, since it is the most powerful of the western world. And they pay a much greater attention than before to american politics, elections and so on. It's kind of ridiculous, but in the last US presidential election one could wonder if europeans didn't think it was THEIR president too being chosen.
Of course, we necessarily don't have the same concern as yours, and many people don't give a noodle bowl of what's going on inside the USA.

As for "the present administration attempt at winning the approval of foreign nations' populations", G.W. Bush was so despised troughout the world that I can hardly blame their trying to better the image of the USA.

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Offline Ultra

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Re: From Neo-cons To Nut Cases
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2010, 08:05:48 PM »
I think I can speak for all the oldtimers here in saying we all despised GWB.
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Re: From Neo-cons To Nut Cases
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2010, 05:41:05 AM »
Ray, I think GWB caused so MUCH havoc around the world, from dangerously destabilizing the Middle East to groping Angela Merkel in public that most of the world felt he was a hazard. The US is the most powerful country - at least for now - and so it is natural for other countries to at least not want a madman at the helm of the biggest ship in the regatta!   :o

But America must look inward now and deal with the rot that rests at the root of the American Experiment. Our government, as Ultra will tell you, has ballooned into a gigantic assemblage of commissions, authorities, agencies and bureaus that insinuate themselves into every nook and cranny of daily life. We may not have a Secret Police like the KGB or the Stassi, but every citizen feels the boot heel of government on his neck and the weight grows heavier with every passing day.

Our government no longer serves us. It is we who serve our government.

Their are fault lines everywhere in American society. We may be sitting on top of a potential political earthquake bigger than that in Chile.   

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Re: From Neo-cons To Nut Cases
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2010, 06:45:18 AM »
"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within."  Marcus Tullius Cicero.
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Offline ateball

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Re: From Neo-cons To Nut Cases
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2010, 06:41:38 PM »
Lincoln was reviled in his day. The state has warped what we know of Lincoln in order to aggrandize itself.

Here is all one really needs to know about Lincoln. He was an idol of Hitler's for his methods of using power.

Actually President Grant.........the Former venerated Union General of the Civil War.........got elected on his war laurels, and was a very weak, and manipulated president.  He was very instrumental in increasing Federalism.

Honest Abe's presidency did indeed usher in much more Federalism controls, But..........................................We must take into consideration what the state of the nation was at the time of his Presidency.  Slavery had been ended by G. Britain long before us, and there was a strong abolitionist movement in the North, that in some ways masked their strong federalist agenda.

Democrat VP Johnson who became President after the asassination of LIncoln, and diametric views to Lincoln.  Lincoln desired to use or hold out an "olive branch" to the beaten Confederate states, but Johnson believed in "punitive" punishment.  Thus we ended up with a terribly offended, though beleagured Southern U.S. populace.  Johnson, single-handedly took our nation many steps backward IMO..........and I think scholars will concur.  Lincolns approach was to accept the South back in as a beaten, battered, part of the Union, and not subjugate, and punish Whites, and especially the white aristocracy any more than had already happened.  Johnson diametrically opposed that approach, wrenching properties from the white populace(especially the major land owners) and turning leaving the South open to Northern land speculators who created leased farms for the blacks and poor whites that were never titled over to the lesee's.

I put most blame for the immense ruining of the South on President Johnson's shoulders.  Grant...........well, he wasn't a leader in the right sense, at least as a president.  There was much scandal, and mishandling during his presidency.

Booth's work ushered in nothing but continued suffering for the South..............was it ushed in President Johnson. 
Regards, Ateball.

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Re: From Neo-cons To Nut Cases
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2010, 07:28:49 PM »
I am acutely aware of the state of the nation as Lincoln took office.  He exacerbated the problems and lured the South into war in order to collect taxes.  Should have let them secede.
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Re: From Neo-cons To Nut Cases
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2010, 10:50:28 PM »
I am acutely aware of the state of the nation as Lincoln took office.  He exacerbated the problems and lured the South into war in order to collect taxes.  Should have let them secede.

Okee Doke! :)
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Offline trobinett

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Re: From Neo-cons To Nut Cases
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2010, 04:37:04 PM »
JHC, this is the PERFECT circle jerk.

You guys, ya know I love ya, well, kinda.

But come on, there is NOT death, and destruction around EVERY fucking corner, you DO understand that, right?

If an "outsider" was reading this thread he would, without a doubt think every fucking one of you was a WINGNUT, you also KNOW that too, right?

Just put a LITTLE bit of "grounding" into these kind of posts, and who knows, maybe you'll carry the day, I doubt it, but who knows?

Carry on, and feed upon whatever it is you feed on........................ ???

Offline Ray B.

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Re: From Neo-cons To Nut Cases
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2010, 04:40:38 PM »
That was my general feeling, but I decided not to despair of human nature, trobinett.
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