Author Topic: Poor Dopes vs. Secret Agents  (Read 2535 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ultra

  • Founder, Publisher Emeritus &
  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 7506
  • Country: us
  • Puzzle Points 20
  • More than you bargained for
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
    • AutoPuzzles
Poor Dopes vs. Secret Agents
« on: April 28, 2010, 01:42:23 PM »
 Poor Dopes vs. Secret Agents
Posted by Lew Rockwell on April 28, 2010 09:15 AM

The conspiracy-obsessed federal government is trying to keep in a cage the nine Michigan “militia” taxpayers its agents provocateur persuaded to say dumb things. At least that was the official story, as reported in the official media. The nine were going to overthrow the government using the government’s signature tactics of force and violence. Really. Truly. Nine working-class people vs. the greatest military empire in history and its millions of troops and cops and spies. Of course, the whole thing was a set up by the Obama police state, which may even be worse than the Bush police state. But now it looks as if the feds may have made everything up. See this story of an honest judge, the keystone kops, and a hilarious day in court.

=======================================================================

FBI agent short on details on militia inquiry
ASSOCIATED PRESS

DETROIT - An FBI agent who led the investigation of nine Michigan militia members charged with trying to launch war against the federal government couldn't recall many details of the two-year probe yesterday during questioning by defense lawyers.

Even the judge who must decide whether to release the nine until trial was puzzled.

"I share the frustrations of the defense team … that she doesn't know anything," U.S. District Judge Victoria Roberts said after agent Leslie Larsen confessed she hadn't reviewed her notes recently and couldn't remember specific details of the case.

Judge Roberts is hearing an appeal of another judge's order that has kept members of so-called Hutaree militia in jail since their arrest in late March.

The indictment says the nine planned to kill police officers as a steppingstone to a widespread uprising against the federal government.

Defense lawyers, however, say their clients are being punished for being outspoken.

Prosecutors fought to keep Ms. Larsen off the witness stand, saying the defendants had no legal right to question her.

But the judge said the agent's appearance was appropriate because the burden is on defense lawyers to show their clients won't be a threat to the public if released.

The nine lawyers asked specific questions about each defendant. Ms. Larsen said she had not listened entirely to certain recordings made by an undercover agent who infiltrated the group.

She said that because they were still being examined, she didn't know if weapons seized by investigators last month were illegal.

At other times, Ms. Larsen couldn't answer questions because she said she hadn't reviewed investigative reports.

Defense lawyer William Swor asked if the No. 1 defendant, Hutaree leader David Stone, had ever instructed anyone to make a bomb.

"I can't fully answer that question," the agent replied.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Jonathan Tukel defended Ms. Larsen, telling the judge it wasn't clear until Monday that she would testify.

Judge Roberts, however, said she told the government to be prepared last week.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Ronald Waterstreet played an audiotape of what he said were several militia members talking freely about killing police.

The participants talked over each other, often laughed and made goofy noises and disparaging remarks about law enforcement.

Prosecutors objected to questions about interpreting the secretly recorded conversations, but the judge said they were fair game.

The judge will resume the court hearing today.

Prosecutors will have a chance to question people who are willing to be responsible for some of the nine if they are released from jail.

===================================================================

Agents provocateur

I wonder what % of Americans know what that term means?  Ah, the blessing of government run schools.
“Honi soit qui mal y pense”


Click the pic....... Name the car

Offline Otto Puzzell

  • Founder and
  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 31556
  • Country: us
  • Puzzle Points 444
  • Open field, with a window.
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
    • AutoPuzzles
Re: Poor Dopes vs. Secret Agents
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2010, 02:23:11 PM »
I smelled a rat on this one from the start. The timing was too convenient to the "tea-party membership leads to domestic terrorism" talking points distributed to and dutifully repeated by talking heads and AP content resellers (what we used to call "newspapers").
You wanna be the man, you gotta Name That Car!

Offline ateball

  • *
  • Posts: 42
  • Country: us
  • Puzzle Points 0
  • AutoPuzzles
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Poor Dopes vs. Secret Agents
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2010, 06:29:55 PM »
The timing of that oil rig in the gulf blowing up and spewing 600 square miles of oil slick, has me wondering too.

Regards, Ateball.

If You Can't Say It Face To Face, It Ain't Worth Saying At All!

Offline Bezor

  • Feature Writer
  • *
  • Posts: 535
  • Country: us
  • Puzzle Points 2
  • A Hairball?
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Poor Dopes vs. Secret Agents
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2010, 11:05:34 PM »
The timing of that oil rig in the gulf blowing up and spewing 600 square miles of oil slick, has me wondering too.



Area 51 scares the shit out of me.

So did U.S. military trained domestic terrorist Timothy McVey.

Offline Otto Puzzell

  • Founder and
  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 31556
  • Country: us
  • Puzzle Points 444
  • Open field, with a window.
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
    • AutoPuzzles
Re: Poor Dopes vs. Secret Agents
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2010, 04:04:42 AM »
Ah ha ha ha! Oh ho ho ho..... Didn't see that coming. Oh, mercy.
You wanna be the man, you gotta Name That Car!

Offline MG

  • Free Radical
  • *
  • Posts: 1794
  • Country: us
  • Puzzle Points 12
  • Designated Driver
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Poor Dopes vs. Secret Agents
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2010, 06:51:47 AM »
And that volcano blowing up in Iceland. There's something weird about that too.     :-\

To be somewhat serious for a moment, Us The People would do well to remember the lessons of Waco and Ruby Ridge. And Kent State.

Americans just should not be going around shooting other Americans. At least not in America. It's OK if they want to do it in some other country, I guess.   ::)
Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the number of moments that take your breath away!

DeAutogids.nl

  • Guest
Re: Poor Dopes vs. Secret Agents
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2010, 07:00:36 AM »
Iceland. First they burn otherpeople's money, then they send them the ashes...

Offline Allemano

  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 18482
  • Country: de
  • Puzzle Points 821
  • almost retired
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Poor Dopes vs. Secret Agents
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2010, 07:09:31 AM »
I've heard retired Leonard Nimoy will move to Iceland to comfort the vulcan...

Offline Ultra

  • Founder, Publisher Emeritus &
  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 7506
  • Country: us
  • Puzzle Points 20
  • More than you bargained for
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
    • AutoPuzzles
Re: Poor Dopes vs. Secret Agents
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2010, 11:30:03 AM »
Judge asks feds to show militia did more than talk

Apr 28, 8:35 PM (ET)

By ED WHITE

DETROIT (AP) - A federal judge challenged prosecutors Wednesday to show that nine members of a Michigan militia accused of plotting war against the government had done more than just talk and should remain locked up.

U.S. District Judge Victoria Roberts heard nearly 10 hours of testimony and arguments over two days. She did not make a decision about whether the nine will remain in custody, saying only that a ruling would come soon.

The members of a southern Michigan group called Hutaree have been in custody for a month. An indictment accuses them of weapons violations and a rare crime: conspiring to commit sedition, or rebellion, against the government by first killing police officers.

Prosecutors say the public would be at risk if the nine are released. But defense lawyers claim the government has overreached with a criminal case based mostly on hateful speech.

An undercover agent infiltrated the group and secretly made recordings that have been played in court. While there is talk about killing police, it's not specific. In one conversation, there are many people talking over each other and laughing.

Roberts pressed that point more than once as Assistant U.S. Attorney Ronald Waterstreet argued in favor of keeping the nine in jail. The judge suggested she didn't hear or read in the transcripts any indication that violence was imminent.

"Mere presence where a crime may be planned is not a crime. ... How does this add up to seditious conspiracy?" Roberts said.

Waterstreet said the government is not required to show all its evidence at this early stage of the case. He referred to the words of militia leader David Stone, 44, of Clayton, Mich., who was recorded by the undercover agent while they drove to Kentucky earlier this year.

"It's now time to strike and take our nation back so that we may be free again from tyranny. Time is up," Waterstreet said, quoting a transcript.

Later, putting the transcript aside, the prosecutor said: "The theme is the brotherhood is the enemy - all law enforcement."

Defense lawyers urged the judge to look at each defendant individually. Although all are charged with conspiracy, they were not always together during critical meetings cited by the government.

"'What if' is not the standard. ... None of these words are an instruction to anyone to commit a crime," said Stone's attorney, William Swor, as held up a stack of transcripts.

Arthur Weiss, a lawyer for Thomas Piatek, 46, of Whiting, Ind., said disgust with the government as recorded by the undercover agent is similar to what's said daily by radio and TV talk-show hosts Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity.

"Millions of people" are talking about "taking our country back," Weiss said.

The judge also heard from relatives of some of the defendants who pledged to be responsible for them if they were released from jail.
“Honi soit qui mal y pense”


Click the pic....... Name the car

Offline ateball

  • *
  • Posts: 42
  • Country: us
  • Puzzle Points 0
  • AutoPuzzles
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Poor Dopes vs. Secret Agents
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2010, 12:52:07 PM »
Hey folks.........I'm not the conspiratorial type...............anyone reading my posts can attest to that.

The oil rig explosion is most likely a fluke(I hope), but it was suppose to be one of the most "state of the art" ones out there in the Gulf.  I guess "state of the art" stuff fails too, doesn't it?

It's just that the "greenie" movement has enough ammo/fodder here with this massive oil slick heading for New Orleans to do some real damage to efforts to open-up oil exploration again along our coastlines.

Regards, Ateball.

If You Can't Say It Face To Face, It Ain't Worth Saying At All!

Offline Bezor

  • Feature Writer
  • *
  • Posts: 535
  • Country: us
  • Puzzle Points 2
  • A Hairball?
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Poor Dopes vs. Secret Agents
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2010, 12:25:40 AM »
Judge asks feds to show militia did more than talk

Apr 28, 8:35 PM (ET)

 The judge also heard from relatives of some of the defendants who pledged to be responsible for them if they were released from jail.

Good for the judge.  It will be interesting to see what the response is and how this plays out. 

Wacked out people still deserve the best defense. 

Offline Ultra

  • Founder, Publisher Emeritus &
  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 7506
  • Country: us
  • Puzzle Points 20
  • More than you bargained for
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
    • AutoPuzzles
Re: Poor Dopes vs. Secret Agents
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2010, 02:02:18 PM »
Federal District Judge Victoria Roberts has ruled that the nine members of the so-called Hutaree Militia accused of plotting to wage war against the Regime can be released on bail. Prosecutors had argued that bail should be denied because the group posed a severe danger to public safety.
The Hutaree group is accused of “seditious conspiracy” — specifically, plotting to  murder a law enforcement officer and then follow up with opportunistic attacks on other LEOs who would attend the funeral. This would supposedly precipitate a wide-scale revolt.
Conversations discussing that scenario were reported by a federal informant who infiltrated the group and thoughtfully offered to teach them how to make improvised explosive devices.
While federal prosecutors have provided ample evidence that members of the Hutaree are passionately anti-government — what decent person isn’t? — they haven’t been able to demonstrate that the group did anything more than engage in survivalist training and indulge in apocalyptic rhetoric.

Defense attorneys, citing the U.S. Supreme Court’s 1969 Brandenburg v. Ohio decision, maintain that seditious speech — including speech that constitutes an incitement to violence — is protected by the First Amendment as long as it does not indicate an “imminent” threat.
The prosecutors’ brief, invoking the the 1995 seditious conspiracy trial of Sheik Omar Abdel-Rahman, maintained that it was not necessary to demonstrate a threat of imminent harm, but rather only that the defendants had formed an “agreement to oppose by force the authority of the United States.”
(Incidentally, it was because of the CIA’s intervention that Rahman got a visa to enter the United States, where he became part of the radical Muslim terrorist cell that carried out the first World Trade Center attack in 1993; that cell included at least three others who  had been on the payroll of U.S. intelligence.)
Judge Roberts didn’t find the government’s case compelling.
“Discussions about killing local law enforcement officers — and even discussions about killing members of the judicial branch of government — do not translate to conspiring to overthrow, or levy way against, the United States government,” she wrote, ordering that the Hutaree suspects be released on bail.
Since the federal case against the Hutaree rests entirely on what was said by the suspects, rather than anything specific that was done by them, it’s difficult to see what’s left of it.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/57041.html#more-57041
“Honi soit qui mal y pense”


Click the pic....... Name the car