Author Topic: An uneasy feeling  (Read 2060 times)

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Offline Ray B.

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An uneasy feeling
« on: August 07, 2010, 08:09:56 AM »
It's been some time since we had a little discussion here about the state of the world.

Why not pick at our (french) government for a change?

English being the universal language here as elsewhere, allow me to quote The New-York Times, August 6:

"France has no equivalent to the 14th Amendment, but the French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, who likes to be known as Sarko the American, also is fanning dangerous anti-immigrant passions for short-term political gain.

Last week, he proposed stripping foreign-born French citizens of their citizenship if they are convicted of threatening the life of a police officer or other serious crimes. Lest any voter miss the point that such a law would be particularly aimed at Muslim immigrants, Mr. Sarkozy’s interior minister, in charge of the police force, helpfully added polygamy and female circumcision to the list of offenses that could bring loss of citizenship.

Days earlier, Mr. Sarkozy promised to destroy the camps of the Roma and send them back to where they came from, mainly Romania and Bulgaria. Both countries are members of the European Union. Hundreds of thousands of their residents, in France legally, now risk being swept up and expelled in police raids.
And Mr. Sarkozy proposes denying automatic French citizenship to people born in France if their parents are foreign and they have a record of juvenile delinquency.
All of this in a country that has long proudly upheld the principle that all French citizens — native-born or naturalized — are entitled to equal treatment under the law. That applies to Mr. Sarkozy’s Hungarian-born father and Italian-born wife, both naturalized French citizens, and should apply to everyone else.

But immigrant-bashing is popular among nonimmigrant French voters and Mr. Sarkozy has never been shy about doing it. He built his 2007 presidential campaign around his tough record (and inflammatory words) as interior minister. Earlier this year, he ran a divisive campaign to define French national identity because he wanted to fend off the far right anti-immigrant National Front in regional elections. It didn’t work.

Now, with his political fortunes at a new low and the National Front resurgent under younger leadership, he has gone further, worrying traditional conservatives who still believe in the rights of man and the equality of all French citizens. They are right to be concerned, and he is recklessly wrong to ignore their cautionary advice.
"

Our president is entangled in a series of affairs mixing tax evasion and the financing of his political party that make France appear somehow like a banana republic. Maybe he devised these propositions as a welcome diversion. But he may have not been well inspired. A former Prime Minister declared, about some of this measures, that we hadn't seen the like of it since the time of nazi-occupied France.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2010, 08:18:10 AM by Ray B. »
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Offline Ray B.

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Re: An uneasy feeling
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2010, 08:26:57 AM »
In France, it's been often noted, after these announcements, that what concerns here the citizenship issue couldn't possibly happen in the United States, thanks to the 14th Amendment.
Well. Continuing my New York Times reading, I found this, which reminded me not to take anyithing for granted:

"Leading Republicans have gotten chilly toward the Constitution’s 14th Amendment, which guarantees citizenship to people born in the United States. Senators Mitch McConnell, John McCain, Lindsey Graham, Jeff Sessions and Jon Kyl have been suggesting that the country should take a look at it, re-examine it, think it over, hold hearings. They seem worried that maybe we got something wrong nearly 150 years ago, after fighting the Civil War, freeing enslaved Africans and declaring that they and their descendants were not property or partial persons, but free and full Americans.

As statements of core values go, the 14th Amendment is a keeper. It decreed, belatedly, that citizenship is not a question of race, color, beliefs, wealth, political status or bloodline. It cannot fall prey to political whims or debates over who is worthy to be an American. “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,” it says, “are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.”

People like Mr. Sessions, who pride themselves on getting the Constitution just right (on, say, guns), are finding this language too confusing. “I’m not sure exactly what the drafters of the amendment had in mind,” said Mr. Sessions, the top Republican on the Judiciary Committee, “but I doubt it was that somebody could fly in from Brazil and have a child and fly back home with that child, and that child is forever an American citizen.”

It’s true that air travel was not a big focus in 1868, but this is not about a horde of pregnant jet-setting Brazilians, if, indeed, such a thing even exists. The targets are Mexicans, and the other mostly Spanish-speaking people who are the subjects of a spurious campaign against “anchor babies” — children of illegal immigrants supposedly brought forth to invade and occupy.

Usually alarms about scary foreign infants are made by one-note zealots like Tom Tancredo of Colorado. But it’s a bipartisan temptation. Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, who berated Republicans this week about abandoning their principles over birthright citizenship, did so himself in a 1993 bill for which he later apologized.

Thankfully, the Constitution is sturdy. The birthright-deniers will not easily rewrite it or legislate around it. More than a century of jurisprudence stands against their claim that the phrase “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” (an exception for diplomats’ children and members of sovereign Indian tribes) also alienates undocumented children.

The proponents of changing the 14th Amendment also would have to acknowledge the big-government colossus that new rules would require, burdening all parents to prove their children’s status. New battalions of attorneys would gain full employment to fight over thousands of newborns rendered stateless each year, an instant, permanent underclass. Then there’s the obsolescence of all those civics texts, old movies, patriotic picture books and red-white-and-blue songs.

The United States has never had a neat, painless way to add newcomers. But our most shameful moments have involved the exclusion of groups, often those that do our hardest labor: Indians, African-Americans, Chinese, Irish, Italians, Catholics, Jews, Poles, Japanese-Americans, Hispanics. America has stood proudest when it dared to stretch the definition of who “we” are.
As a result, this is still the most welcoming country for immigrants. A few politicians chumming for votes in an off-year election cannot be allowed to destroy that.
"

« Last Edit: August 07, 2010, 08:29:07 AM by Ray B. »
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Offline Allan L

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Re: An uneasy feeling
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2010, 08:58:22 AM »
Yes, well . . .
We Europeans (well many of us)  have countries that have had a continuous history for a couple of millenia, so we have a diiferent outlook from that on the United States of America. We can remember a time when all the people we were likely to see in a week looked more or less like us, so the change in the last half-century is quite noticable.
Both France and Britain made a simple mistake with regard to their overseas territories:  France declared its North African possessions to be part of France, so naturally there was no control over the migration across the Mediterranean (in either direction).
Britain's mistake was not quite as dramatic but it was that any person born in a part of the British Empire was a British Citizen. Again that resulted in the free flow of people.
Just after the war to help cope with a shortage of people prepared to do the poorer-paid work we sent to the Caribbean for labour and that worked well.
Later on we were able to help the Ugandans of Asian origin when Idi Amin decided that African Ugandans would be given priority (to the extent of land/business seizure). They were entitled to come to Britain and many did and most repaid the former colonial power by working well and hard.
However those migrations left us with a large number of non-Europeans and they have been followed by serious numbers from the Indian Subcontinent and the Middle East. Many of the earlier immigrants took the host country as it was and adapted to suit, but for some time we have had serious pressure from immigrant groups for our laws, schooling, etc. to change to suit them and their beliefs.
I would not be surprised if that's the same in France. Liberté and Fraternité are all very well but égalité works both ways, which the immigrants often don't seem to accept..
« Last Edit: August 07, 2010, 09:01:42 AM by Allan L »
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Offline Ray B.

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Re: An uneasy feeling
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2010, 10:54:26 AM »
... but for some time we have had serious pressure from immigrant groups for our laws, schooling, etc. to change to suit them and their beliefs...


I am 110% with you on that, Allan.(... 110% because I deeply resent every attempt to change laws, schooling and so on, on account of some "God's law" supposed to overrule human law. I resent it as much when it comes from french born christians, by the way.)

But it's not exactly what is at stake here.
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Offline Ultra

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Re: An uneasy feeling
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2010, 05:29:19 AM »
Enemies of the state are friends of the people.  We can't have that.
“Honi soit qui mal y pense”


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Offline Ray B.

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Re: An uneasy feeling
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2010, 12:57:16 PM »
I did recognize your motto here, Charlie, but I find it hard to understand what it means regarding these matters. That wasn't at all the subject.
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Re: An uneasy feeling
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2010, 01:28:24 PM »
My comment was dripping with sarcasm.

Quote
Last week, he proposed stripping foreign-born French citizens of their citizenship if they are convicted of threatening the life of a police officer or other serious crimes.

The police are the embodiment of state force.  Anybody the government declares an enemy of the state gets there citizenship revoked and gets thrown out of the country.

“Honi soit qui mal y pense”


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Offline Ray B.

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Re: An uneasy feeling
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2010, 03:48:47 AM »
He, whose mind is shaped as a hammer, sees any problem as a nail.
Unfortunately some are in fact tomatoes (old taoist saying)
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Offline DeAutogids

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Re: An uneasy feeling
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2010, 05:46:13 AM »
I wasn't aware of the Swiss being a colonial force, but we see the same things happening there (essentially banning mosques from being build). Can't be an EU thing either, as they are not part of it.

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Re: An uneasy feeling
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2010, 12:26:49 PM »
He, whose mind is shaped as a hammer, sees any problem as a nail.
Unfortunately some are in fact tomatoes (old taoist saying)

Crushed tomatoes are one of the key ingredients to my profitable pizza.   
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Offline Ray B.

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Re: An uneasy feeling
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2010, 01:55:25 PM »
 :lmao:

Did I foresee this reply?
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Offline Otto Puzzell

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Re: An uneasy feeling
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2010, 05:13:41 AM »
Cops. Pizza. Like a moth to a flame.



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Offline MG

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Re: An uneasy feeling
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2010, 03:36:13 AM »
I'm sorry I missed this thread when it was current.

After traveling through France and Italy these past two weeks, and meeting any number of interesting, intelligent and informed people, I am forced to conclude that the encroachment by government upon the daily lives of the people is an issue that is near the top of the list of what people worry about, no matter what country they are from.

The explosion of anti-muslim and anti-Mexican fervor in the US is a precursor to the forthcoming by-elections, in which every candidate seeks to get political mileage from scaring the bejezus out of the electorate with tales of debauchery and skullduggery by those who are not like "us". The current uproar over a mosque to be located within a few blocks of the former World Trade Center is a sorry testament to the power of hateful speech. 99% of Americans would be shocked to learn that there actually WAS a muslim prayer space within the Twin Towers themselves. And some would even go so far as to vehemently deny that such a thing existed at all, preferring to label that information as a pernicious lie fomented by muslim apologists.

The primary thing my trip has taught me is that it is imperative to use the power of the internet to forge alliances among thoughtful people like those found here and elsewhere on the web to promote a shared understanding of each other and a willingness to oppose oppressive government action, whenever and wherever it is found.

Peace, brothers!   :)
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