Topic: The Final List

[Paul Jaray]

The time has come.
How many of you have a list of manufacturers, a database of makers or even a site were you go to when you look for info?
How many times you find something missing in this database: a manufacturer reported in a book that is new for you, a period ads featuring a new make, a solved puzzle with a totally new name?
How many times you see pictures taken from a book or a magazine and you'd like to know more but you don't know where to find a reference to that source?
How many times you are looking from a car made in Switzerland but you can't look in all your sources, one by one looking for that name?

If your answer is not: "What the hell are you talking abaout, you mono-maniac!" this place may be interesting for you.

I have been developing a terribly challenging project during my latest 10\15 years: a list.
Not a simple list, but a definitive list.
In this list I have ...listed... all the manufacturers, coachbuilders, team racers,  designers and even the simple men who built cars by themselves.
I went further, listing all the models that I had in my papers, for all these manufacturers, keeping trace of the sources and the pictures and adding technical specs.
Nowhere can be found such a list in the web ( trust me ) and even the most comprehensive source (like, for example, the Beaulieu) does not report a lot of makes (one-offs, buggies, racing cars, concepts....).

I'd like to use your knowledge to improve it in those areas where my sources cannot arrive.
Each one of you has got a particular knowledge in some areas where my work is terribly incomplete.
In return, I offer a lifetime work: a list that each one can use at his own benefit, in a format that allows you to sort it by Name, Nationality, Years or whatever you find appropriate.

The project is huge, it will contain all the sources I know, and I know it will probably be a really neverending project.
That is why I need to know if someone is interested and before we get started we need to determine some precise rules.
We will start with the manufacturer's only: models, specs and pictures will came later.

I'm waiting for feedbacks.

[DynaMike]

Great Idea, Paul Jaray!
Back in the early 70s I started to make lists of car manufacturers. I was some eleven years old when I reached the 100 mark, a few years later I had some 500 makes, and then I gave up... But it would be great if I could be of any help in this "neverending story" 

[Paul Jaray]

Thank you.
I started when I was a kid too. I had this handwritten piece of paper with a list of supercars....
Then I decided to put it in an old PC... and the short list became a list of more than 7500 makers, increasing of hundreds (yes, hundreds) of makes each week these days! And there are all the models known for each one of them (more than 51000 but I decided to stop listing each model-year for some american cars since it was taking to much time, but it is in my things-to-do list).

[faksta]

I will be glad to help you, although I have never got down to making such an index - my archive is made mostly of pictures with some information added to the names of files or folders (that's why it is very difficult to search in it  ). It will also depend on time I will be able to spend on this project, but in general I'm at your service - I find the idea very interesting

I have a coiple questions, though. First, do you plan to add different trademarks of the same builder as different entries (for example, Ferrari and Dino or Chrysler and Imperial). Second, what about numerous assembly factories - they often made some modifications to the models they've produced under license to adjust the car for the local market (numerous Fiat factories all over the world...).

[Paul Jaray]

Thank you.
You do not need to have a list on your own: you can just check mine and add what is missing and fix what is wrong.
The 1st step is the following:
We have to divide each manufacturer into categories.
The list will be alphabetically sorted, but we can tag each name to be able to use it:
I'm not too good to explain, but if we add some tags to each name we can collect all the cars into separated categories when we need it.
This is the 1st matter we have to discuss.

[faksta]

What tags do you mean? Country, period, category (production / prototype / self made etc.) and so on?

[Paul Jaray]

The list, that I'll post soon, is like this:

1) Manufacturer, 2) Years, 3) Nationality, 4) Full name 5) notes
Example   
1)MARSH      2)1899-1905   3) US     4) Marsh Motor Carriage Company, Brockton, Massachusetts 5) 1899-ex Atlantic Steamer

This allows you to sort them by the name, the years and the country.
It also give you the name of the previous company (if any) or the later development of it (if any) if it is part of a group, if it is incorporated by another or if it was sold under a different name in a different country. The full name is a precious resource when you have 10 manufacturers with the same name!

The 1st division has to be about the manufacture's nature:
I still have not a precise idea, but something like this:

• Alfa Romeo, Clenet, Ginetta, Pilgrim make different cars (traditional, neoclassic, kit-cars, replicas) but should be in the same big group, the one of the Companies
• Revelli, Michelotti, Giugiaro, Exner are designers
• Pininfarina, Bertone, are coachbuilders
• Lola, Williams, are racing cars builders
• Gordini, Abarth are (something like) tuners
• a man who built his own car is a category apart

In this 1st layer we have to include them all.
Please, help me find these categories and the eventual bugs of it!

[Paul Jaray]

When we will include also the models, we can add the other tags, like 'replica, kit car, neoclassic, 3-wheeler, concept, buggy, ATV, race car, off-road, etc etc'
but we can't use these tags for a company:
many kit car builders have replicas in their line-up but also original fun-cars or neoclassic.
Alfa Romeo itself sold a replica of the 6C 1750, but we can't use the 'Replica' tag for the 'Alfa Romeo' make. When the 'Quattroruote Gransport' model will be in the list, we can use it, and in a search of Replicas it will show up as a valid result only this model.

In this 1 layer there should be also a category for the 'non-automotive' makers: a car built by a magazine, by a company of biscuits or by a tyre company...
another one for the cars built by the schools, the universities or the colleges.

[Paul Jaray]

Let's start from this:

• Regular manufacturers= companies making cars for the market in one, more than one exemplar or even as a project for a future production: here should be all the manufacturers of passenger cars, kit-cars, replicas, buggies, 3-wheelers, neoclassics,etc. When a group of people form a brand to create a vehicle to sell 
• Coachbuilders= this can be a tricky one, no doubt about some names, but how can we call a Callaway for example?
• Designers= just men, or women, who are responsable for the design of a vehicle, not the modern chief-designers, but the person directly involved in it. Some discussion is required also here
• Not-automotive Institutes= schools, university and colleges which developed a vehicle as a class project, or something like that
• Not-automotive companies= vehicles built by companies not related directly with cars, such as chemicals industries (BASF, MARBON, BAYER), food industries (Outspan, Cadbury...), magazines, and so on
• Tuners= this is another slippery field. It's not easy to put Gordini, Abarth or Alexander in the same category of Brabus, AMG or Lorinser
• Racer builders= companies which build racing cars only. Not self made specials or passenger cars used in race
• Individuals= just men, or women, who built their own car, alone or in small groups of entusiasts, for personal use or for race

[TheItalianJunkyard]

Count me in!

Yes I'm new here, and yes I'm not a pro yet and yes, I doubt I can know more than you, but I like the idea.
I have my own never-ending archive, albeit pretty small compared to yours.

For as regards Callaway, it's a tuner  , no doubt on that, even if it may seem weird, but they sell every single update for ordinary cars, no need to buy the full C16, for instance.
That said, it is hard to say Brabus and ENCO are both tuners. I'm not into Brabus, but there are cars out there that ? have some difficulties calling them "cars" some times.

I recently decided to archive only cars that actually exist/existed, no free-time design students projects, no visionary tuning car. Renderings are OK only if followed by serious plan and a founded business. Otherwise you won't be able to recognize between someone with good computer skills and some actual automotive skills.

Not really into kit-cars either, but I'm working on that.

[Paul Jaray]

I'm happy to ear that.
about Callaway, that is exactly how I listed it, a tuner, but I would like to ear other opinions, and your is welcome!
About kit-cars I have only few books, but I'm sure we won't be short of sources and experts.
In few days I will have the "A" part of the list on the net, and then we can start looking for updates.
I'm decided to archive real cars and not renderings too.
Is there something I left out in these 8 categories?
I'm thinking at all these name I have in the list and try to figure out if they can be associated to one and only one of these.
About Mc Laren, for example, they are racing car builders, but they also produced at least 3 road cars (M6 GT, F1 and the new one).

[faksta]

What about the companies like Magna? They've built a couple of concept cars, but mostly deal with components. It can't be listed within 'Non-automotive companies' and I can't define any other category among the ones you have specified for it. Webasto or Valmet could be in a similar situation.

[Allemano]

and EDAG..

Will help to complete the Final List only when this board is still focused mainly on puzzles. 
Anyway I guess I won't be of big help, but will do what I can..

[Paul Jaray]

I thought it when I was wondering of the tyres companies...they can't be considered non-automotive...
...there can be a category for companies in the automotive field, but not strictly car-makers.

[Paul Jaray]

Will help to complete the Final List only when this board is still focused mainly on puzzles.

This is just a project, it won't move the centre of this place of an inch. 

[faksta]

'Automotive related businesses' or something like that?
And still what about assemblers and trademarks? 

[Paul Jaray]

Yes, something like that.
About the assemblers, I think they are just useless. It's not important to have listed all the Volkswagen's assemblers all around the world, except the markets where there are specific models, and I think they go in the 'regular manufacturer' group.
So far:

• Regular manufacturers= companies making cars for the market in one, more than one exemplar or even as a project for a future production: here should be all the manufacturers of passenger cars, kit-cars, replicas, buggies, 3-wheelers, neoclassics,etc. When a group of people form a brand to create a vehicle to sell 
• Coachbuilders= this can be a tricky one, no doubt about some names, Touring, Zagato,etc
• Designers= just men, or women, who are responsable for the design of a vehicle, not the modern chief-designers, but the person directly involved in it. Some discussion is required also here
• Automotive related companies= companies dealing mostly with components, like Magna, Webasto or Valmet
• Not-automotive Institutes= schools, university and colleges which developed a vehicle as a class project, or something like that
• Not-automotive companies= vehicles built by companies not related directly with cars, such as chemicals industries (BASF, MARBON, BAYER), food industries (Outspan, Cadbury...), magazines, and so on
• Tuners= this is another slippery field. It's not easy to put Gordini, Abarth or Alexander in the same category of Brabus, AMG or Lorinser
• Racer builders= companies which build racing cars only. Not self made specials or passenger cars used in race
• Individuals= just men, or women, who built their own car, alone or in small groups of entusiasts, for personal use or for race

[pnegyesi]

Here's an alternative classification:

OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) - this is the professional term for an automobile manufacturer. This should be reserved for the "big" ones, past and present.
Assembly plants - relevant only, when there are models suited to local tastes
Automobile companies - smaller companies, buggies, kitcars, etc.
Engineering companies - this could include contract assemblers, like Magna, Valmet and others, like EDAG, Webasto, ASC
Automotive suppliers -  BASF, Johnson Controls, Faurecia et. al. which also created some prototypes
Design studios - I think it is obvious
Racing companies - like McLaren, Lola
Schools
Tuners
Individuals - I'd group here those who designed some cars and those who built one-offs at home

[TheItalianJunkyard]

A while ago I was wondering about splitting race cars from road cars (see the McLaren case, but also Ferrari or Porsche have/have had good ortion of race cars in their lineups).
I'd honestly keep it as simple as possible.

- actual automakers, like Ford, Fiat etc etc, considering also McLaren (with its 3 cars), Alpina (which is officially registered as such and not as a tuner), and also low-colume makers like exotic makers as Pagani, Spyker, Koenigsegg, Mitsuoka, Tramontana (what's its real name btw? as a company I mean)

- tuners, from Brabus to Autodelta and so on

- race cars makers, like Lola, Reynard, McLaren (once again), Audi's prototypes and rally cars

- coachbuilders...easy one like Zagato and Pininfarina obviously, but what about companies like n2a Motors from the States? The line between them and tuners soemtimes risks to be a bit too thin...

- kit-cars, whatever you can buy and assemble in your garage

- replicas, clearly inspired to something already existing, but it may even be a category mixing with others. A lot of kit-.cars are replicas too.

- concept cars, including both cars coming from Magna, EDAG, IED of Turin and so on, but in the case of IED for example, when they were commissioned by McLaren to
provide new designs for their future MP4-12C, I think that should be listed as McLaren's concepts, as they were designed because of them, with their inputs and resources.

 

[Paul Jaray]

@pnegyesi:
I'm looking for some classes to divide them all as a 1st layer, inorder to look through pertinent groups when we make a research.
Your division is goob, but I have some doubts here:

Assembly plants: hundreds of makers started as assembly plants for others marques (Alfa Romeo-Darraq). If we search for all the Darraq assemblers (and there were a lot) Alfa Romeo will show up as a result, but AR is also an OEM.

Automobile companies: smaller companies. How can we define how a company has to be small to be listed here? Cisitalia was a small company, Lotus is quite big, De Tomaso made few cars....And how can we keep this definition upon a growing make?

Individuals: we'll have Michelotti, Loewy and Charbonneaux togheter with Mr John and Sig. Rossi who built a powered quadricycle...

The others are more or less the same, but we need a category for the cars built by other companies, not related to the automotive field, like some magazines (Popular Mechanics, Quattroruote and others) or food industry (advertising vehicles like the Outspan Orange, the Cadbury vehicles, and others)

[Paul Jaray]

@TheItalianJunkyard

The division between actual and defunct is not pratical: If I have to compare two cars like an Alfa Romeo RLSS and, let's say an Amilcar C6, they need to be in the same group. And there are a lot of makers (modern ones) that are simply silent: honestly I don't know if they are active or not anymore.

Racing cars makers: almost each big company can be found here (Ferrari, Alfa, Fiat, Renault, etc...) and this won't be a real division.

About the other categories, they are all tags to be added to the models, not to the companies:
kit cars: many comanies has got kit-cars and fully assembled cars, but also original designs.
concepts: Ferrari's 408 is a concept, but we can't put the 'Concept' tag to Ferrari make.

My idea is a 1st division to have:
all the 'pure' companies in a place (Audi, Salmson, Essex, DeP, you name it)
all the 'pure' racing companies in another (Mallock, Lola*, Reynard, ....)
all the individuals who designed cars (just designers)
all the individuals who build up a vehicle (all the sel-built vehicles, present to past, from the steamers of 1896 till the car assembled from scratch yesterday)
tuners or coachbuilders: who actually do not build a car, but just modify an existing one.
schools, you got it,
engineering automotive companies: like the cars made by Webasto
non-automotive companies: magazines, etc,

The following step will be a further division into these groups.
What do you think?

[Paul Jaray]

Ok, the best way to find it is to do it:
Find a category, only one, for each one of these manufacturer:
Ferrari = in one category, you'll have to include production cars, concepts, gt, racers, coachbuilt cars. (Testarossa, Mythos, 250gto, 375 Indy, 250MM Barchetta)
Chaparral = in one category, only racing cars
Savannah = Savannah college of art and design, not a coachbuilder or a car designer, but a College of Art
Exner = Not as a chief designer, but as a father of concepts.
Pininfarina = A coachbuilder, but also a concept maker and a production car maker.
Harris = the man who built the streamliner in 1936, collecting parts from other vehicles.
Gordini = a tuner, who modified some engines, but who also build many racers and who gave his name to some production cars
Wienermobile = the big wurstel, where do we put it  ?
Webasto = amazing concepts, how can we define the company?
Bremen = one category, for this maker of kit-cars, replicas, original vehicles and assembler. (Sebring, Lafer, Mini Mark...)

[TheItalianJunkyard]

Sorry Paul, with "actual" I mean "real" automakers, not present ones  , so we agree here.

Didn't get we were considering a "first layer" division, so now I have to say the last list you just posted seems OK.
Not so sure on how the individuals designed cars could go though.
You mean "designed" as in "engineered" or "styled"?

Like, many coachbuilded cars are often related to a single man, like the recent Bertone Mantide and Jason Castriota, but that's correct only for what regards the style.

On the other hand, cars like the McLaren F1 or the LCC Rocket are intrinsically related to Gordon Murray, but probably only the latter was (almost) designed by him and only him, while for as regards the F1 it was more of a team work, even if he was the leader and main contributor.

From this point of view, they'd both be more of a "second layer" filter, quite different cars from those really built and designed by a single man egnerally in his garage, and often replicas of some sort.


Need some elaboration on this category...



On the other hand...couldn't it be simpler to just add "tags" to all of the names, makes, models, we have?
Then you can just search trough them inserting the right tags, without any level required.
It isn't always possible to define something precisely, so more tags would just help I think.

Regarding companies like Magna and Webasto, they are "suppliers".
Which production cars did Pininfarina? as far as I can remember they modified existing cars at best, like the Pinifarina Spider based on the Fiat 124 Spider, while the cars they produce are of other makes, like the Alfa Romeo Spider or the Ford Focus CC, but they are still are respectively Alfas and Fords.

[Paul Jaray]

Thi brings me to another consideration:
I'm focusing to determine the nature of the maker, but its nature is determined by its products, so a McLaren is a racer builder when we consider an MP4\17 but is a 'normal' maker if we pick up the F1 Supercar.
We can still have this generic 1st layer, but we can add a more challenging layer, where we add all the tags for the models of that make:
Ferrari = 1) Normal (can't find the right word for this sorry) 2) production, race, concept, coachbuilt
Chaparral = 1) Racing cars builder  2) race cars
Savannah = 1) school 2) concept
Exner = 1) designer 2) production, concept, coachbuilt (Chrysler 300C, Mercer Cobra, Chrysler D'elegance Ghia)
Alfa romeo = Normal 2) production, race, coachbuilt, concept, replica (giulia, 33TT12, RM Sport Castagna, Gransport Quattroruote)

About the designer, that is a good question, Bertone started as a designer, but now he's a coachbuilder, like Giugiaro and his Italdesign. Fioravanti is a designer, a concept maker and part of Pininfarina's team in the past.

On the other hand, cars like the McLaren F1 or the LCC Rocket are intrinsically related to Gordon Murray, but probably only the latter was (almost) designed by him and only him, while for as regards the F1 it was more of a team work, even if he was the leader and main contributor

You are considering the model and not the Maker\name: here we have Mc Laren, LCC and Murray.
Mc Laren = racing cars builder (but also few 'production cars')
LCC = production cars (ok is a small brand, but they are for sale and for road use...)
Murray = is not a company, He is more an individual, and if we want to include him in this list, we can include engineers with the designers.

[Allemano]

Bertone for instance is devided in different companies: Stile Bertone and Carrozzeria Bertone (less important Bertone Engineering and Bertone Glass)