Topic: The Final List

[Paul Jaray]

Please, vote the idea you'd like to realize, even if you won't work for that.
In the meantime here is what we already decided and what is still to be fixed:

Make:
DONE: We agreed that we need some categories.
There will be assemblers only when they had specific models but a Mercedes-Benz from Tuscaloosa won't be different from a German MB.
When a make changed name during its life: if the company will still be the same (like Ferrari-SEFAC) there won't be a specific (SEFAC) entry in the main column but it will be reported in the 'Full name' one. When the company keep making cars under the new name (like A.L.F.A. then Alfa Romeo) we will have both names listed.
TO DO: which categories fit them all?
Years:
DONE: 2 different fields: a year for the beginning and one for the end
TO DO: about the companies that keep working under the same name but no more in the car-making field?
about companies that built a car but are not in the automotive field as a main business?
about the individuals?
about racing cars?
about the obscure makes with indicative years (like in the 80s)?
shall we add a new column for these with an indicative year?
Naz
TO DO: pu in the same place all the different nationalities a make had during its activity, fixing the wrong abbreviations.
Full name
DONE: the full name of the company plus the place, plus all the different names that the same company had (Ferrari-SEFAC) but not the name of the different, following company, we can make a cross reference for that in another column.
TO DO: shall we add the years when the same company changed name?
story  
TO DO: few lines where we report: merges, companies, later development of the company and so on

[faksta]

Make:
What I thought is if we don't list assemblers, how do we specify production years for each model? The original model might have been discontinued, but at some plants all over the world it still might have been produced for local markets. Should we specify the original car's years of production or make a combined period for all the assemblers (including the years in which the car was not produced at the main plant)? Listing assemblers might have helped with that, although it will be quite difficult to find them all.

Years:
For racing cars, as well as for production ones, I'd specify years in which they were constructed, if you don't want to go deep into all the modifications they underwent during their lifes. Otherwise, we will need to think deeper about it.

Full name:
I think adding years of the company being known under one or another name would be very useful.

Story:
And don't forget the perons behind the start of the company.

P.S. PJ, did you receive an e-mail? Will such a way of development be convenient now?

[TheItalianJunkyard]

I voted for the second option, but i don't think a different website is necessary at the beginning...it's a long way...

btw, I agree both with PJ and faksta, and I'd add this:
YEARS: when we don't know the period when a maker was active we could simply enter the first year of the suspected decade (like 1930) in RED, and so eventually for the end of its life.
About individuals, we could only the year when the car/project was finished, perhaps in a different color as well like BLUE, without a end of life year. It should still allow a query to find it.

MAKE: as faksta pointed out some cars were officially discontinued by the parent company but still sold elsewhere by its local subsidiaries, think about the Golf mk1.
I think should be mentioned on the notes/page about the specific model.
In case a company disappeared and one or more of its cars were still made, probably the name changed, and if not, it should be mentioned on the notes. You could still buy some Rovers after they went out of business, but the company was dead, while some cars are still built by in China, but under a different name.



If you don't mind, I'd focus myself on the structure of the database, from a technical point of view. That's very important so that we start dividing the info we have (PJ, actually ) since the beginning and perhaps add something else.
It isn't different from what we were discussing until now, I just want to have a specific look at the structure.
Answering right now the questions we could have and that would lead to us browsing the archive would make such archive much more...browsable... 
The point behind this already lead to the two columns for the first and last year of activity, for example.
At this point, if someone has some ideas, even the most obvious, about what you are asking yourself before of browsing such a sort of index or reference, post them here, it will be highly appreciated 

[Paul Jaray]

@faksta:
this first step is about Makes and not Models.
If Roves as a make ended up in 2005, in the Rover Line we will have Active: 1904 Out of business: 2005.
Then, in the subfolder, (sub-whatever) with the models we will have for example Rover XX:  after 200X available under the XXXX make.
Then, as TIJ suggested, we can specify in the notes of the model the further career of it.
We can also lists assemblers if their activity may be relevant for our project.
If the MAKE is taken over by another, we will have a line for each and the reference in the 'Story' column.
About the racing cars, I do agree with you.
About full names, we can do it.
About the story, I have something similar in my index: a reference to all the people involved in a way or another in the development of that model. Many personalities are involved in many project, but not officially: I'm thinking about Porsche in a lot of projects, or Murray, and so on.

[Paul Jaray]

@TIJ (hope you don't mind the abbreviation)

it seems that you saw my index!
You suggested more or less what I did:  I put an indicative year for the suspected decade and about the designer, in the list of models, I have the year of that model, in the list of makes, an indicative year for my queries.

I received your email, faksta, and I'll add those makes right away.
For further makes, I think it's better to focus on the structure, as TIJ suggests and on the references\categories.

[Paul Jaray]

The new updates comes from faksta and are the green ones.
The red ones comes from the net.
All the others can be found on other sources such as books, magazines, etc.

[TheItalianJunkyard]

This index should eventually be the ultimate way to solve all puzzles.

[Paul Jaray]

In that list (A only) I did not list 40\50 makes that are: some of my current puzzles and some of my possibly future puzzles.
And I put a couple puzzles of mine in it as well, but it's up to you to find out which ones! 

[TheItalianJunkyard]

That's it, the key is to find a good way to look into it.
Queries, I remember how much I hated them...

[Ultra]

 

[TheItalianJunkyard]

I was considering designing this list with what I believe could be a useful feature.

I'm pretty sure all of us have a picture archive on their computer(s) and hard disk(s).
On the other transferring those images on the list would be just overkill if not for the huge amount of images and gigabytes.

So what I was considering is to design the list so that downloading it to your computer, and obviously using the right program, you could link the list to your images archive, so that when you do a query and got one or more results, you can also look at them, both if you were looking for a company or for a specific model.
It would require also to adopt the right scheme for the images archive as well so that the two system can talk to each other, but I suppose that shouldn't be a problem.
I'm not really sure about this, but maybe the "list" (or rather, the database made with the list) could even modify the images archive so that it complies to its (database's) rules.

could it be interesting? I say yes, but what about you?
could it be easy to do? that I don't know, we'll see...

[Paul Jaray]

As I told before, I'm not really into technical matters, when we talk about PC: i just know what allows me to survuve  .
Your idea seems great, but it will be useful only for who already have a lot of pics.
I'd love this feature on my index and I'll be very happy if you manage to do that.
In ther meantime I'm working on the 'B' part of the list.

[faksta]

If you mean uploading all those pictures on the future site (or AP section, whatever), some copyright isues will occur, as always 

[Paul Jaray]

If we collect pictures from the net or from old books, it will be more or less what we have here or in other sites. When\if there will be some copyrights claims, we can remove the pic and leave the link: important is to have all the info ready to use, if we can't post a pic from a book, we can post the reference to that book and who is really interested can buy it, if available, or can receive a scanned page from a generous friend  .

[TheItalianJunkyard]

No, no pictures or so would be uploaded. Maybe just one or a few images per each model, just to recognize it, but that's not what i was talking about.
Actually, what I meant is exactly the contrary.
You download the list, and link it to your archive, so that when you make a query in the list, and you have your result(s), you can also look directly at the related images YOU have in YOUR computer.

I think this could be helpful. I'm considering this because I was thinking about what I would I do if I have such a list (completed that is, both all makes and all models).
I'd use it to search for something, but when we look for something we like to have pics of it too. Even more if we are trying to find something we can't remember or that we have to confront with something else.

That's why I made that joke saying it would be the perfect way to solve every puzzle.
In my (at the moment) virtual project, you should be capable to find the exact name (given it already is featured in the list) of whatever car just recognizing some characteristics of the car you're looking at.
Like time (even a large period like a decade or even more), the country of origin, the kind of vehicle (coupe, coachbuilded, cabriolet, sedan etc etc) and so on.
Surely you'd still have to know what that you're looking at and how to browse and interrogate the list.

[Ultra]

How's it coming Paul?

[Paul Jaray]

Thanks for asking, Ultra.
I'm proceeding with my work as usual, now I'm working on the 'B', but this project is for you all: if you think it may be useful (like it is for me), help me find a way to make it manageable, if it's not, well, I'll keep on updating my list for myself.
Like I said from the beginning, what I have is fine for me and I can use it as I need. If someone is interested in it, I'll share my work, but you have to tell me how you want it and how are you (we) going to use it, then.
I don't know which features you may like (I think TIJ's project is very interesting) and what you'll be looking for from that index, that's why I suggest to focus on the layout of the Maker list and the categories. I don't know much about technical issues, that's why I've been using a simple excel file for years.

[TheItalianJunkyard]

I'm not working much on this thing at the moment as this is a busy period for me, but I didn't forget it!

[Otto Puzzell]

Paul,

I've picked up a working java script that should allow for the sorting of the table by any of the column headers. Not a pure "search" function, I know, but I'm working on embedding a google search gadget into the pages, as well.

Can you send me the password for the unprotected version of the spreadsheet. Cutting and pasting the protected version is taking me forever.

Thanks!

[Paul Jaray]

PM sent! 

[Paul Jaray]

I'm almost done with the 'B' letter but I'm not going to add it to the 'A' part, because I had something different in my mind.
The 'A' part was just a sample, to let you know what I was talking about.
I'd like to post the complete list, but after we decide how to use this list.
I don't want just a list, with everything mixed up, but a list that we can use: someone is looking for all the selfbuilt russian cars? Go to that list and sort it by nationality and then look for the "personalities" category.

I'm making a sum of all what we already discussed here, so that you don't need to read back all the previous pages:

Here's the sample:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AjYlJSxUWho7dGpSemJLTkswOGwxaFJHbzNDTlJmRGc&hl=en
The underlined makes are the ones I suspect to be only assemblers but since I had not the time to check, they are included.
The red entries are the ones that are not in my papers, but are available in some sources online.
The green lines are some updates I received from our AP's member
All the others are featured in some books and can be checked

Here are the issues we already found out:

• Do you plan to add different trademarks of the same builder as different entries (for example, Ferrari and Dino or Chrysler and Imperial)
  Yes.
• What about numerous assembly factories - they often made some modifications to the models they've produced under license to adjust the car for the local market (numerous Fiat factories all over the world...).
  They will be included when they have specific models for theyr countries in theyr line-up.(Fiat Regatta Coupe)
• Renderings are OK only if followed by serious plan and a founded business. Otherwise you won't be able to recognize between someone with good computer skills and some actual automotive skills.
  I agree, no free-lance sketches, but serious plans. (but we can always decide for a further category to include them all).
• If a company is divided into different companies (Stile Bertone & Carrozzeria Bertone)?
  I don't think it will be of any use to go too deep on each make, remember that there are thousands and thousands!
  In my list, for example, Giugiaro is reported as a designer when I listed many Bertone's or Ghia's cars made by him and as a coachbuilder with Italdesign.
  Bertone is listed only one time, with the car he designed and with the concepts he made.
• what about a structure like this:
  1 - makes, here you list all makes, from companies like Fiat to a small business like BXR Motors. Evrything is listed here, individuals and heavily modified race cars as well (not all the Porsche 956 were the same after they reached each team...)
     -- each item in this list has its own tags, as much as it is required, like:
          --- McLaren is a racing car comany, but also a production car company, an exotic maker, etc etc
          --- ItalDesign is a coachbuilder, but also an engineering company, and a design (or concept car) company
  That is good, and that tags are exactly what are we going to find!
• About the countries, we should use the one were the company started. Babylonians aren't called Iraqis nowadays.
  Perhaps we could add something like URSS - now Kazakhstan or Italy - now Crotia
  We can make both nationalities and we can do that also for the companies which changed nationality during their life.(see faksta's reply#69)
• then the years active column should be separated for SOP/EOP - start of production production and end of production. If end of production is blank, then the company is till active
  Perfect!
• Something rather different: Many infos on the internet (and in books and other publications) cannot be controlled or checked. It would be nice if the list could get some foot note system.
  My idea include also a "reliability indicator", that is: together with each make, we can add the sources where we can get these info (books, magazines, websites)
• You also feature bus producers?
  No bus-producers here unless they also build cars or bodies for cars

[Paul Jaray]

we will add a column to that list with the tags.
Now let's find them:
(these tags have to be related to the manufacturer and not to the models!):

• Production Car Company (companies making cars for the market in one, more than one exemplar or even as a project for a future production: here should be all the manufacturers of passenger cars, kit-cars, replicas, buggies, 3-wheelers, neoclassics,etc. When a group of people form a brand to create a vehicle to sell )
• Racing Car Company (companies which build racing cars only, or mainly. Not self made specials or passenger cars used in race )
• Individuals (just men, or women, who built their own car, alone or in small groups of entusiasts, for personal use or for race) 
• Schools\Institutes: schools, university and colleges which developed a vehicle as a class project.

We still have to find a commong ground for:
Coachbuilders\Designers\Engineers\Stylists\Tuners\Design studios    and
Companies like: chemicals industries (BASF, MARBON, BAYER), food industries (Outspan, Cadbury...), magazines, (Popular Mechanics, Quattroruote...),Engineering companies (Magna, Valmet, EDAG, Webasto, ASC)

I can't find a manufacturer\name that can't be included in one of these.

[Otto Puzzell]

Perhaps we can list the manufacturer and the coachbuilder, and denote "collaboration" (a project developed by the coachbuilder and the manufacturer), "customer car" (a one-off built for a wealthy individual), "coachbuilder promotional" (built by the coachbuilder to showcase their abilities and/or secure work from the manufacturer) or Coachbuilder / Limited Edition (a short run of cars built for a seller, such as an Arnolt-Bristol).

[Paul Jaray]

But that will affect the models, I'm still thinking at the makers.

A Pininfarina-built Testarossa will be a model under the Ferrari make and under the Pininfarina make as a collaboration
A Pininfarina-built 375MM Berlinetta built for Mr. Rossellini will be under the Ferrari Make and under Pininfarina make as a one-off
A Pininfarina-built Pinin will be under the Ferrari Make and under Pininfarina as a show car.
A Pininfarina-built 400 Superamerica Cabriolet will be under the Ferrari Make and also under Pininfarina as a Coachbuilt\Limited edition car.

We will use the cross references to list all this cars, like I already did in my index: I have all the Fiat togheter, but I can sort them by coachbuilders (Allemano, etc...) but I can also list all the Allemano cars (not only Fiat, but also Lancia, etc...)...

The question is, according to what you wrote, which tags are we going to use for Pininfarina, as a Brand\Maker\Designer?

[Paul Jaray]

I know that it seems complicated, but it's not.
I'm not too good to explain, but the system works, I already have it.
When I made my list of manufacturers, there was no need to be too accurate in this division, because I have also all the model listed:
I divided all the manufacturers into generic categories (Racing Cars, Production Cars, Coachbuilt Cars, etc) but I also have all the model listed:
if I look in my 'Ferrari' string, in the Manufacturer's list, there is only the 'Production Cars' tag, but in my model's list I have 'Production Car-Race Car-Coachbuilt-Prototype-Limited Production' tags associated to every single model, when appropriate.
If I have to look for a racing car company, I'll search into the manufacturing list, and I know that Ferrari won't be there and if I look for a racing Model, I'll look into the Model list and I'll have all the models that I tagged with 'Racing Car'.