Topic: Fiat 850 fuoriserie wanted!

[als15]

Dear friends,

I'w working of a new book about all the Fiat (and Seat) 850-based derivatives, from 4-door sedans to formula cars.
I think you could know a lot about unusual and almost unknown models, hence I will ask for your help: the 3 strangest ones will be awarded with a free copy of the book, that will be printed in January 2010. We could even launch a poll on the forum to chose them.

Period pictures, magazine features and ads are most welcome.


Thank you in advance,

Alessandro.

[Paul Jaray]

Hi Alessandro,
I was going to contact you, because I was going to continue my 'Coachbuilders' article with the 850 derivates.
I have a list of them but I'm sure are all quite familiar to you:
850 4-door Lombardi Prototype (Quattroruote n.103)
850 4-door Lucciola Lombardi (n.103, 104 & 107)
850 Z Coupe Zagato (n.108)
850 Berlina Vignale (n.107)
850 Giannini Coupe Frua (n.97)
850 Coupe OSI (n.108)
850 Coupe Scionieri (n.104 & 107)
850 Coupe Siata (n.105 & 107)
850 Coupe Vignale (n.107 & 108)
850 Spider Libellula Lombardi (n.107)
850 Spider Savio (n.107 & 108)
850 Elettrica (Milleruote #5)
850 S Berlina, Coupe e Spyder Moretti (n.104 & 105)

[Paul Jaray]

all the pics are also in other sources but I'm sure you have all the Quattroruote issues...
Great pictures can also be found in the TAM.
850 Spider Ellena (n.107)
850 Spider Scioneri (n.104 & 107)
850 Spider Vignale (n.107)
850 Daino Spider Boneschi (n.108)
850 Belvedere Caprera (n.108)
850 SS Coupe Moretti
850 4-door Berlina Mantelli (n.108)
and the well known Hidalgo, Vanessa, City Taxi, Abarth....
I'm still working on it, since I'm at issue n.108.

[Paul Jaray]

and in Ruoteclassiche #62:
850 Vanessa Vignale, 4-porte Lombardi Serie 1 & 2, 4-porte Mantelli, 4-porte Allemano, Berlina Coupe e Spider Moretti, Berlinacoupe e Spider Vignale, 850 Cabriolet Savio, BerlinaScionieri, Spider Boneschi by Bonetto, Spider Ellena, 2+2 OSI, Spider Lombardi, Berlinetta Vignale, Berlinetta 'tipo Miura' Vignale, S4 e berlinetta Moretti, Grand Prix Spider Lombardi, OSI Week-end, Monza Lombardi, Siata Spring e Baldi El-Sabry. 

I have a pic for all of them of course, but I' ll post if someone will be interested.

[Paul Jaray]

About Formula cars, the Artes FIII Guepardo from 1966 was equipped with a Seat 850 engine.
And of course there is this car, i had it for later posting but...

[als15]

Thanks! 

The amphibious is crazy! But I think is something modern. What do you think about?

In the list I've found three I probably have never seen: the electic one, the Artes Guepardo and the Hidalgo. More info about these are more than welcome!

Thanks again,

Alessandro.

[faksta]

I'm afraid all I can propose now would be from the Internet, but here you are the link to a 1973 article about Seat Juncosa Spider 850-1600 in Spanish:
http://www.forocompeticion.com/foro/index.php/topic,1205.0.html
Although I'm not sure whether you are interested in rally cars or not.

Another unusual 850 derivative I can recall is a tiny Samas Yeti 850 by Veicoli Speciali Delta.
http://fiat850.free.fr/annonces/annonces.htm
http://www.lanciaflavia.it/annunci/dettid.php?gb_id=19582

Some Fiat 850 engined cars were made in the USA. Among them there was quite an unusual PBS Mk2, which was equipped with a modified 850 engine. You can find a little information about it in a book called 'Vintage American road racing cars 1950-1969' available at books.google.com.
Also can be found here: http://dsr.racer.net/chassis/pbs/page1.htm. And a note about its engine: http://dsr.racer.net/engines/pbs/page1.htm.

Quite an unusual Formula Junior car with Fiat 850 engine was also built in the USA, but is yet unidentified by its current owner.
http://www.race-cardrivers.com/Vintage%20Formula%20C.htm

Still not all of the above creations quite fit the style of the cars featured in your books 

P.S. Some links may reveal some sources for puzzles...

[Paul Jaray]

I'm sending you a PM with the link to the barchetta, it should be a model from 1975.
I'm sure you know the Hidalgo 1000, presented by Eurostyle in 1968 and the 1000 coupe of 69, both based on 850 mechanicals.
I'm uploading a couple of pics taken from the net, but I can scan better ones from my magazines.
About the electric version, in the Milleruote encyclopedia, Vol.5, pag.119, there are a couple of pics (one of the back and one of the interior) of the 850 modified by Fiat in 1964. I'm uploading the pics.
About the Artes, I'll collect the info I have and I'll post.
Here is a pic that is available on the net and in Pablo Gimeno's book 'El Automovil en Espana', pag 441, togheter with a pic of the engine.
@Faksta, you can sent PMs if you do not want to reveal sources. 

[als15]

I was right: you are the right people to ask help! 

Faksta: thank you for the info. I already know some of them, but I'm very interested about the US-made ones, which of coure in Italy are less known. I got some info directly form PBS people a few months ago, but do you know other similar American 850-based sportscar?

About the Yeti, a little note not to add confusion: it was started by Delta (based in Turin) and after a few years  the project was passed to Samas (based in Ricca d'Alba, province of Cuneo). The first firm made it with 850 engine, the second with 127 903cc. So Delta and Samas are 2 different cars (also in some body details).

Paul: I missed the Hidalgo, so your help is very useful this time! I'll check if Quattroruote reported something; otherwise a higher-res picture will be welcome.


Thanks again to everybody!

[Paul Jaray]

I sent you right now a PM with the translation of the Artes page from Spanish to Italian (that is much easier for me). The engine was the Seat 850 one as reported in Gimeno's book and a  couple of websites (but I know the info on the web aren't necessarily trust worth). I'm uploading a pic of the engine.

FICHA TÉCNICA:
Motor: 4 cilindros en línea, 997 cc (81 x 48,35 mm) y 122 Cv Din a 9.000 rpm, válvulas en cabeza con árbol de levas lateral con tres apoyos y tres engranajes desde el cigüeñal. Par máximo: 9,25 m/kg a 7.500 rpm. Lubricado por bomba Hourborn Eaton de doble cuerpo. Carburador: Weber 46 IDA modificado. Refrigeración: por agua de circulación forzada con bomba accionada por correa dentada.
Transmisión: motor central, tracción posterior. Embrague: monodisco en seco Borg & Beck accionado por bomba. Caja de cambios: Hewland MK-6. Par cónico: Ford Cortina 8:35.
Llantas: Sélex de 10 pulgadas delante y 12 pulgadas detrás. Neumáticos: Dunlop Racing 4.25/10.00/13 delante y Dunlop Racing 5.25/11.50/13 detrás.
Chasis: estructura de tubo de acero soldado, con aleación de gran contenido en níquel. Carrocería: polyester reforzado. Tren delantero: ruedas independientes con trapecios desiguales, con barra estabilizadora y amortiguadores hidráulicos telescópicos graduables Sélex. Tren trasero: igual pero con bielas de reacción. Frenos: disco a las cuatro ruedas. Capacidad del depósito de combustible: 45 litros.
Vía anterior: 1,41 m. Vía posterior: 1,43 m. Largo x alto: 3,30 x 0,78 m. Altura desde el suelo: 9 cm. Peso: 400 kg.

[75america]

Paul Jaray is moving fast here.

I believe this Allemano Coupé is not mentionded yet:

[75america]

More info on the amphibious Fiat 850 Barchetta can easily be found on the internet.  It was for sale not that long ago on ebay.

See for example: http://www.autoblog.com/2009/09/18/ebay-find-of-the-day-amphibious-fiat-850-barchetta/

[75america]

Still a lot of them are missing.

I will try to dig some deeper the coming days.

There is also the Michelotti designed Spiaggetta, Some Giannini's are still missing, I believe Pininfarina made some showcars on Fiat 850 Basis, Neckar Adria, Vignale Dart,...

More to come...

[faksta]

Thanks for the correction concerning Yeti.

I have also found a Fiat 850 sedan picture, which, in my opinion, is quite strange. Maybe it is because I have seen a 850 only once in my life, but I think there was no such version at the factory? And I can't recall any coachbuilt version like this from my memory  http://thesimpleconnoisseur.blogspot.com/2009/08/1965-fiat-850.html

Someone has also posted a puzzle of quite an interesting Fiat 850 coupe dragster from America with Volkswagen engine before, but I can't find it now, although found a vast information on it.

As for the other Fiat 850 American cars, I think they mostly were 850 Spider with a rollbar and some minor modifications. I'll share what I'll be able to find on this subject, although I'm not sure I will succeed.

[Paul Jaray]

That is the Allemano 4-porte. 

[faksta]

Thanks That was mostly for my personal interest 
Somehow the photo did not attach to my previous post. I cannot remember who has posted this as a puzzle. 

[Paul Jaray]

I was wrong, it is the Moretti 4-door, the Allemano version was quite different.
I'm posting some pics here.
http://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/index.php?topic=7241.new#new

[Allemano]

Thanks That was mostly for my personal interest 
Somehow the photo did not attach to my previous post. I cannot remember who has posted this as a puzzle. 

It was me...

http://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/index.php?topic=7739.0

[als15]

Yes, some are still missing... but we are on the right way.
Thanks again to everybody for the big help.

Vignale Dart! Finally it has a name: I ever saw it called the "little Miura"...

[DynaMike]

Hi Allesandro,

You are also interested in buggies that used the 850 engine?
In Holland we had the buggy Maplex Scorpion. Only 20 were made (and still 10 left), and according to http://home.wanadoo.nl/fiat600maplex/ only with 600 engine, but according to 'Autodesign in Nederland' by Jan Lammerse (Zwolle, 1993) they also used the 850 engine.

[Quiller]

Of course you know the Michelotti Shelette and Zagato 850Z....

[Ultra]

 

[als15]

DynaMike: yes, I'm interested in everything has at least the 850 engine (or chassis, or more). The buggy you have shown me is exactly what I'm looking for! 

Quiller: yes, I know them, but thanks anyway! 

Just because I'd like to be as more precise as possible, of course non to correct you but to help other enthusiasts in finding the correct info, the Shelette was actually a one-off on Daf base made for the playboy Philip Shel. The following 80-unit production based on Fiat was called the "Spiaggetta". This also according to the chrome badges on the front of the cars.

[75america]

I did a quick but targeted search in my library for Fiat 850 derivates and the following list is what I came up with.  But i'm sure there are still (a lot of) cars missing:
A lot of them are already mentioned above but some are new in this thread.
Let me know from which ones you need more information.  (Although most of the time not a lot (sometimes even none) of additional info is available).  Please keep also in mind that sometimes a car in this list and a car that is already mentioned above can be the same car but with a (slightly) other name or description:

1964 Abarth OT 850/130 Berlina (standard body)
1964 Abarth OT 1000 Berlina (standard body)
1964 Abarth OT 1600 Berlina (standard body)
1964 Abarth OT 2000 Berlina (standard body)
1965 Abarth OT 1000 coupé and OTS 1000 S coupé (standard body)
1966 Abarth OT 1300/124 coupé (standard body)
1966 Abarth OT 2000 coupé
1968 Abarth OTS 1000 Coupé gruppo 3 (standard body)
1965 Allemano coupé Fiat 850
196? Allemano Coupé
1965 Allemano Berlina 4 porte
1972 Baldy Elsabry
19?? Baldy Riky
1965 Bertone Spider by Giugiaro (normal body)
1965 Bertone Fiat Abarth 1000 OTR 1000 coupé by giugiaro
1965 Bertone Fiat/Abarth OT 1000 spider (standard body)
1968 Bertone Fiat 850 Racer Team
1964 Boneschi Daino
1964 Caprera Fiat 850 Belvedere
1967 Caprera Fiat 850 Elaborazione (sun roof and improved interior)
1966 Caprera Fiat 850 Coupé
1964 Ellena Fiat 850 Spider with both Abarth 1000 and Fiat 850 mechanics
1968 Eurostyle Fiat 850 coupé (2 different ones)
1964 Fiat 850 (Standard car)
1965 Fiat 850 Coupé (Standard car)
1965 Fiat 850 Spider (Standard car)
1968 City-Taxi
1967 Francis Lombardi Fiat 850 Special (with big sunroof)
1968 Francis Lombardi Fiat 850 ‘Smart’ on both 850 and 850 special basis
1964 Francis Lombardi Fiat 850 1st series  “Lucciola” 4 doors (3 side windows)
1964 Francis Lombardi Fiat 850 “Lucciola” 4 door (2 side windows)
1964 Francis Lombardi Fiat 850 and 850 Special “Lucciola” with simili-leather interior
1964 Francis Lombardi Fiat 850 “Libellula”
1969 Francis Lombardi Grand Prix spider (also called Monza?)
1968 Francis Lombardi Grand Prix coupé ( Giannini 850 and Giannini 1000 [not identical] and Abarth 1300 Scorpione and Scorpione S and SS)
1968 Francis Lombardi Special Grand Prix
1968 Francis Lombardi Monza
1965 Frua Fiat 850 (modified rear window)
1964 Giannini 850 S and 950 (standard body)
1965 Giannini 850 SL (standard body)
1965 Giannini 850 Coupé and 950 and 1000  (standard body)
1965 Giannini 850 Spider and 950 and 1000  (standard body)
1968 Giannini 1000 Berlina (standard body)
1964 Ghia Fiat Vanessa by Giugiaro
1966 Ghia Roots (only a drawing and not sure it is Fiat 850 based)
1963??? Mantelli elaborazione 850 SS
1964 Mantelli Fiat 850 4 door by Michelotti
1964 Moretti berlina 4 door
1964 Moretti coupé Fiat 850 Special
1964 Moretti Spider Fiat 850 Special
1966 Moretti coupé 850 (sportiva model)
1966 Moretti coupé 850 SS (sportiva model)
1966 Moretti coupé 1000 SC (sportiva model)
1966 Moretti 850 Sport Competizione (sportiva model with T-roof and Giannini engine)
1967 Moretti 850 (sportiva model)
1968 Moretti Berlinetta Sportiva on Fiat 850 Special  (sportiva model)
1968 Moretti Coupé on Fiat 850 Special  (sportiva model with sun roof)
1969 Moretti Berlinetta Sportiva on Fiat 850 Special  (sportiva model with other front)
1968 Michelotti Shellette on Fiat 850 Special basis
1968 Michelotti Coupé Fiat 850
1967 OSI Week-end
1964 OSI Coupé by Michelotti
1965 Pininfarina Fiat Abarth 1000 Coupé Speciale (the Spider has 600 Mechanics)
1964 Savio Spider
1964 Scioneri Coupé by Michelotti
1964 Scioneri Spider by Michelotti
1964 Scioneri Coupé by Barison
1966 Scioneri 850 elaborazione
1964 Siata coupé TS Fiat 850 by Michelotti
1967 Siata Spring
1964 Touring OSCA 1050 Spider
1964 Vignale Coupé 4 seats (Also as Giannini 850 S and 950)
1964 Vignale coupé 2+2 (Also as Giannini 850 S and 950)
1964 Vignale Spider (Also as Giannini 850 S and 950)
1969 Vignale “850 Special Export” in I think both 2+2 and 4 seat
1965 Vignale Berlinetta coupé
1969 Vignale Dart on Fiat 850 Special basis
1964 Zagato Fiat 850 coupé Z

Because of the complexity of the Giannini and Abarth line-up some more in dept research will be necessary.

There are also the ‘license built’ Fiat 850 cars like the Neckar Adria, Pirin-Fiat 850 and  Seat 850 and its derivates.

850 T derivates are not mentioned in the list because you already published a book about these. 

I don’t know how far you want go with your book but cars like the Autobianchi A 112 had Fiat 850 (derived) engines as well.

[als15]

Dear 75america: great list!

A few questions:

- 2 Allemano coupes: what's the 2nd one?
- Ghia Roots: never seen before...
- Scioneri Michelotti & Barison: which is the one and which the other?
- Touring OSCA 1050: never seen before...

Standard cars built under license (Seat, Neckar, Steyr, ...): no, I don't consider them as a "fuoriserie". A "fuoriserie" is somethign built without any Fiat's involvement, just buying (directly or indirectly) from Fiat the whole car/the chassis/the engine.

Perhpas after completing the "Fiat fuoriserie" pattern I could begin with one about the licenseers.