Author Topic: Automobile Coachbuilders and Manufacturers  (Read 3758 times)

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Offline rosenbergm

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Automobile Coachbuilders and Manufacturers
« on: December 26, 2012, 11:19:41 AM »
I am looking for people to contribute to making the best website their is in terms of listing all automobile manufacturers and coachbuilders, tuners, custom's and one off's. So bascically everything their is in terms of cars. As far as I know all these things have never been combined before in one website. I don't know how to open a website but if we have a team of people I am sure one person will have experience in opening a website. Also with the people we have here on autopuzzles we can have a lot of people contributing all those mystery cars and unknown cars. I will be the first to say that this is something that will never be complete but if we have people like we have on autopuzzles contributing maybe it can be more complete then other sites. If you want to join the team please reply.   

Offline Carnut

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Re: Automobile Coachbuilders and Manufacturers
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2012, 12:13:54 PM »
Good luck but that really is one utterly gigantic task..
Suitable only for those with no job I think..
Interests in life:  Cars, cars, cars - oh and ..er..cars

Offline pnegyesi

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Re: Automobile Coachbuilders and Manufacturers
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2012, 01:29:32 PM »
you have already posted a plea in another topic, where a discussion was launched.

As a contributor to the Georgano Encyclopedia, and as an automobile historian, I can tell you, that the task you set out to do is impossible to finish. I've dreamt about this for years, and even did a website on then current automobiles - it was as comprehensive as possible, but financially it was a disaster.
My best advice is to give it up
https://rareandunique.media - Rare&Unique Vehicles magazine
http://magyarjarmu.hu - detailed Hungarian motoring history (Hungarian language)
http://automuseums.info - motoring museums' guide

Offline rosenbergm

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Re: Automobile Coachbuilders and Manufacturers
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2012, 02:50:16 PM »
yes I did have another discussion opened in another topic but that was for a book that everyone said no to. So I felt it wasn't same so I opened it in another topic for a website. 

Offline pnegyesi

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Re: Automobile Coachbuilders and Manufacturers
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2012, 03:09:44 PM »
Yes, you can have a website and you can have dozens of contributors. But I give you two examples, why it is an impossible task:
- In around 1925, a Hungarian daily featured an article about a car which was put together in the city of Pécs many years before the article was written. Nothing further is known about this car. And there is no way to find out anything about this car.
- A small, two-page brochure appeared at a flea market many years ago. It depicted a sporting car from the 1930s, with the name of the guy who built it and it also featured scant technical details. Nothing, I mean, really, nothing has been published on this man or the car ever (or at least I failed to find even one reference).  But there was a photo in the brochure.

These are just two examples. And I've seen a book which listed all of the cars built in an American state. By the time it was printed, an addendum had to be added manually.

So my best and very friendly advice is: don't do it.

I was in the same shoes eleven years ago. And I got money, I got people and we built autoindex - everyone loved it. But it never made sense from a financial point of view. And ultimately I had to pull the plug.  That was a small website, compared to your idea, but even that costed enormous amount of money and efforts
https://rareandunique.media - Rare&Unique Vehicles magazine
http://magyarjarmu.hu - detailed Hungarian motoring history (Hungarian language)
http://automuseums.info - motoring museums' guide

Offline Paul Jaray

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Re: Automobile Coachbuilders and Manufacturers
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2012, 06:06:06 PM »
I'd like to share my opinion.
1st of all, I won't tell you to give up.
I had this naive idea long ago: I started with a list written on a paper!
Now I know that is an impossible task but it's been a wonderful hobby so far, I improved my knowldege in this field and I ended up in a place like Autopuzzles, where I met the same people who wrote the books I love and many other people from around the world with a huge knowledge.
I have now a big database of obscure cars, a collection of papers, a very useful index and a network of friends helping me.
Follow your idea, it won't hurt you...but follow Pal's advice too: don't think you can make money out of it, it will probably be the opposite.
In the end:
if you think you can list all automobile manufacturers and coachbuilders, tuners, custom's and one off's, you should know that you will not be able to do that, even if you assemble a team helping you.
If you wand to build a website that will bring you some money, then change your mind... it won't.
but...
if you want to compile the most comprehensive list of automobile manufacturers and coachbuilders, tuners, custom's and one off's, then go ahead...I already have one and in no other sites I found what I have there.
if you want to create a place like Autopuzzles, where enthusiasts help you compiling this list sharing theyr material, go ahead and be ready to spend time and money on that.

About Pal's 2 examples, they prove what I wrote...even the most obscure and forgotten car can surface in the end...in a letter to a newspaper or in the papers of an old lady. If you collect them too, your list will be by far the best around but you'll know there will be thousands more you probably won't reach.

Offline rosenbergm

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Re: Automobile Coachbuilders and Manufacturers
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2012, 06:52:43 PM »
Yes, you can have a website and you can have dozens of contributors. But I give you two examples, why it is an impossible task:
- In around 1925, a Hungarian daily featured an article about a car which was put together in the city of Pécs many years before the article was written. Nothing further is known about this car. And there is no way to find out anything about this car.
- A small, two-page brochure appeared at a flea market many years ago. It depicted a sporting car from the 1930s, with the name of the guy who built it and it also featured scant technical details. Nothing, I mean, really, nothing has been published on this man or the car ever (or at least I failed to find even one reference).  But there was a photo in the brochure.

These are just two examples. And I've seen a book which listed all of the cars built in an American state. By the time it was printed, an addendum had to be added manually.

So my best and very friendly advice is: don't do it.

I was in the same shoes eleven years ago. And I got money, I got people and we built autoindex - everyone loved it. But it never made sense from a financial point of view. And ultimately I had to pull the plug.  That was a small website, compared to your idea, but even that costed enormous amount of money and efforts

I thank you for your advice. I wasn't going to create this site in the expectation of making money I know I wasn't going to make money long before I even thought about doing this. But I really do appreciate your advice

In regards to your 2 examples. The car from 1925 hungarian daily you don't have pictures on. But the other car that was in the brochure do you have pictures of it. If you do can you please post it or if u did already please give me the link.

Offline rosenbergm

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Re: Automobile Coachbuilders and Manufacturers
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2012, 07:13:16 PM »
I'd like to share my opinion.
1st of all, I won't tell you to give up.
I had this naive idea long ago: I started with a list written on a paper!
Now I know that is an impossible task but it's been a wonderful hobby so far, I improved my knowldege in this field and I ended up in a place like Autopuzzles, where I met the same people who wrote the books I love and many other people from around the world with a huge knowledge.
I have now a big database of obscure cars, a collection of papers, a very useful index and a network of friends helping me.
Follow your idea, it won't hurt you...but follow Pal's advice too: don't think you can make money out of it, it will probably be the opposite.
In the end:
if you think you can list all automobile manufacturers and coachbuilders, tuners, custom's and one off's, you should know that you will not be able to do that, even if you assemble a team helping you.
If you wand to build a website that will bring you some money, then change your mind... it won't.
but...
if you want to compile the most comprehensive list of automobile manufacturers and coachbuilders, tuners, custom's and one off's, then go ahead...I already have one and in no other sites I found what I have there.
if you want to create a place like Autopuzzles, where enthusiasts help you compiling this list sharing theyr material, go ahead and be ready to spend time and money on that.

About Pal's 2 examples, they prove what I wrote...even the most obscure and forgotten car can surface in the end...in a letter to a newspaper or in the papers of an old lady. If you collect them too, your list will be by far the best around but you'll know there will be thousands more you probably won't reach.

I will never give up. But I am trying to find websites I can go to for sources. Autopuzzles for sure is one. I have many books if anyone has any good books Or good sites please tell me which ones. I have the following Books
Beaulieu Encyclopedia of the Automobile And Coachbuilding
Standard Catalog Of US Cars 1805-1942
A-Z Of Sport Cars 1945-1990
500 Fantastic Cars
Weird Cars
Encyclopedia Of Classic Cars By Thunder Bay Press
Automobile Manufacturers Worldwide Registry
Cars Of The World 2008-2009 Edition
American Cars Since 1775
American Dream Cars
Various Magazines, Auction Catalog's

If anyone has any cars that are mysteries and can't be identified please send it to me or post it Or give me the link in which I can see it.

It's true that cars can surface at anytime and these cars are complete mysteries but that's what makes it interesting. For example their was a maharaja in india that had a Rolls Royce now this particular maharaja was paralized from the waist down so a coachbuilder made the car so that he can control the car with only his hands. But never the less a mystery. As far as I know nobody knows who the coachbuilder was. Also the Pearl Of India was another Rolls that has disappeared many have.
the only thing we can do is do research and once we find a car that we have never seen before all we can do is try to identify it if we can't we can't. But for me I would at least like to have a record. The more info I have the more info I can write down. Who Knows maybe one day some might know. But for me that's what makes it interesting. I Consider myself a Automotive archaeologists / Historian. Just like regular archaeologists when they discover something all they can do is research it and if they can't find anything on it, it just gets cataloged but at least their is a record. Cars are the same way. Even to this day when archaeologists dig up creatures from the jurassic period or whatever sometimes that can't find anything on it all they can do is write down info and catalog it away sometimes all they have is a partial fossil just like cars sometimes all we have is a picture (Ex: Hungarian Car from brochure) so we catalog it and that's it.

any one else feel the same way  
« Last Edit: December 26, 2012, 08:34:34 PM by rosenbergm »

RayTheRat

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Re: Automobile Coachbuilders and Manufacturers
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2012, 08:39:00 PM »
I agree with PJ.  Cars (building them, racing them, studying their history...you name it) have been in my blood since I was about 2 weeks old and my father put a model of a then-current Indy car beside me and snapped a photo.  That was in 1947.  It's been all downhill since then.  'Course I've done the same thing with my grandkids.  I gave 'em race car models at about the same age. 

I have shelves full of books that go back at least 40 years, a database of well over 150 thousand images, cataloged and indexed for quick lookup (if I only had something like Google Search By Image for my own collection...) and thousands of photos that I've shot myself since 1999 when I started photographing car shows and hot rod cruises, then did the freelance photographer thing for a while both with sports cars and on the Bonneville Salt Flats.  I still do the salt flat thing, but otherwise I'm retired; my heart and cardiovascular system are pretty worn out.  (My primary website has many of these photos and I've done my best to identify the cars, at least in the car show "cruisin" section by year, make and model...I also have some of the photos I shot with my first SLR camera, a Pentax Spotmatic, going back to 1968-1971.)

To make a a website/collection like you've described, I suggest doing a thorough search of the internet and make a list of all the sites that already attempt to do this.  Some are pretty good, others are riddled with errors or have gaping holes in the information provided...like country of origin. 

From there, I'd suggest designing a database that will allow a logical method of searching and presenting the content without endless hours of maintenance.  (I was a software developer for the last 15 years of my career, and I also did some database design.)  As you're doing this, consider how you want the information presented.  I start by breaking things into several major categories: production cars, race cars, hot rods and kustom cars, trucks and so on.  Then within each major section I break things down in what I think is the most logical way.  For production cars, it's by country of origin.  For race cars, it's a combination of marque...but I have a sub-section for Formula cars...broken down by type: F1, F2, F5000 and so on.  I also have several sections for US racing series...Indy/sprint and midget; US sports car racing; stock car racing.  Then I have another section for Land Speed Racing that includes all countries. 

I suppose I could restructure this, since I'm not using a database manager, just some image viewing (ACDSee) and cataloging software (I use a program called, "WhereIsIt".) 

One thing I had to do was build a "high-performance" computer (8 processor cores, 16 gigabyte memory, 11 terabytes of disk, high-end video card with 2 large flat screen monitors), since computers that I'd had previously just weren't up to the task.  I'd suggest looking at your anticipated need for storage and performance and then double it.  This is another case where "too much is just about right." 

Before you even consider any of this, ask yourself if you plan to make any money from it and how that might be accomplished.  If you DO intend to have a commercial site, make sure that you have the copyright to all the images you plan to show.  And even then you may find yourself pestered with people who demand that you remove the photos of their cars...I can quote you the US law about this in depth, but basically it says that if you present a photo of "property" (which has no rights to privacy of its own) that can't be easily associated with an individual and the photo was shot on a location that's accessible to the public, the owner can't demand payment, nor removal of the photo, commercial website or not.  However, if you have photos of some racing series, that can become a problem, since some series have people who attempt to sell photos of their racing events...and then the threats of lawsuits and other legal issues begins.  I've been fortunate not to be in that position, but I know people who have.

Now.  If you still want to go ahead with this and the magnitude of the project isn't overwhelming and you've seen what other people have done, then make sure you have virtually all your time (you may have to give up sleeping and working to do it) available to devote to it.  While you're at it, consider what language(s) you plan to present it in and decide how to address this issue.  One option here might be to specialize in one country, marque or genre.  There are many of those on the web now, but I'm sure there's a niche that someone hasn't covered. 

So, like PJ, I won't suggest that you give up.  But I've tried to outline some of the issues that should be addressed before continuing.  I'd also suggest sticking around here, solving puzzles (it's amazing how much one can learn doing that) and/or writing articles.  The people here have a huge storehouse of information and are generally pretty good about sharing it.

Again, check in my profile for my primary website (Ray the Rat's Chevy Asylum) and see how I've done things.  It may give you some insight of what to do and what NOT to do.

Best wishes for success in your project,

Offline rosenbergm

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Re: Automobile Coachbuilders and Manufacturers
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2012, 09:18:23 PM »
TY RaytheRat

I know this project will yield no money and will be a crazy insane project but for me like I have said before I am an automotive historian / archaeologists I feel that if somebody doesn't do it, it might never be done. For me the Beaulieu encyclopedia really started it for me then I started seeing sites and I said why don't we create a killer reference. First I said book and many people on autopuzzles said that it was too expensive and a site would be better, now people are saying don't do a site either. I have done some searching on the internet I have a list of sites I can go to for creation of the list of manufacturers but I am sure their are others more specific in those countries I just can't find them. Coachbuilders are another problem finding examples and the coachbuilders themselves. Their is a person on autopuzzles who is making a book just on italian coachbuilders he has like 500+ coachbuilders just in italy alone so another huge project. I was looking for the Dictionary Of Coachbuilders book you don't by chance have one do u.

Any advice you or anyone can give please share. Also any contributions for my project will be greatly appreciated and you will recieve credit of course.

I just want to witsh every one a happy and healthy new year to everyone @ autopuzzles

RayTheRat

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Re: Automobile Coachbuilders and Manufacturers
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2012, 10:01:16 PM »
I have a book on British coachbuilders, and I have ALS's book on Viotti on order.  There are some other books in my library like "Rolling Sculpture" by Gordon Buehrig, but the "Dictionary of World Coachbuilders and Car Stylists" by Marián Suman-Hreblay in Slovakia seems to be a little tough to find.  It's not in stock on Amazon.com, and other websites come up empty-handed, too.  More research is needed on this one.  Google the title and there are several sources.  One of them has an email address for the author.  Maybe it's still available thru him.

Again, best wishes to you with your project,

Offline pnegyesi

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Re: Automobile Coachbuilders and Manufacturers
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2012, 11:53:03 PM »
Marian will publish a new issue next year of his coachbuilding encyclopedia
https://rareandunique.media - Rare&Unique Vehicles magazine
http://magyarjarmu.hu - detailed Hungarian motoring history (Hungarian language)
http://automuseums.info - motoring museums' guide

Offline Carnut

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Re: Automobile Coachbuilders and Manufacturers
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2012, 05:59:06 AM »
I still don't think you've grasped the utter enormity of the task rosenbergm.
Whilst your motives are laudable and it would be something very valuable and good, there are probably more than hundreds of thousands of cars, makers, coachbuilders etc that must be in it.  The world is quite a big place and I would say the numbers actually run into millions.  The task would be totally overwhelming.  Better to specialise, and then things are perhaps easier to find too.  I have hundreds of motoring books, but even they probably only cover a very small percentage of what's out there.
Just my two penn'orth.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 09:00:18 AM by Carnut »
Interests in life:  Cars, cars, cars - oh and ..er..cars

RayTheRat

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Re: Automobile Coachbuilders and Manufacturers
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2012, 07:01:30 AM »
Marian will publish a new issue next year of his coachbuilding encyclopedia

Thanks, Pal.  I'll be sure to order it when it's available.

Offline pnegyesi

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Re: Automobile Coachbuilders and Manufacturers
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2012, 07:27:56 AM »
I still don't think you've grasped the utter enormity of the task resenbergm.
Whilst your motives are laudable and it would be something very valuable and good, there are probably more than hundreds of thousands of cars, makers, coachbuilders etc that must be in it.  The world is quite a big place and I would say the numbers actually run into millions.  The task would be totally overwhelming.  Better to specialise, and then things are perhaps easier to find too.  I have hundreds of motoring books, but even they probably only cover a very small percentage of what's out there.
Just my two penn'orth.

Not to mention the difficulties when you're trying to get info on one-off cars from places like Japan, China or Thailand.
And there's the cost of obtaining photographs - photo libraries can ask for enormous sums
https://rareandunique.media - Rare&Unique Vehicles magazine
http://magyarjarmu.hu - detailed Hungarian motoring history (Hungarian language)
http://automuseums.info - motoring museums' guide

Offline woodinsight

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Re: Automobile Coachbuilders and Manufacturers
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2012, 07:45:07 AM »
That's all very interesting but far from discouraging you I would suggest that you concentrate in an area of the industry that hasn't effectively been covered - it's far more satisfying in my humble opinion.

I have been involved in publishing for many years both in the motor industry and maritime markets. I was a member of the Guild of Motoring Writers for over 20 years and understand how difficult it is to put together the 'definitive' guide/encyclopedia for a certain industry. As others have pointed out, if you are publishing a book it is out-of-date as soon as it goes to press or other facts come to light that should have been included. You can't reprint an updated version of the book every year (unless you have an unlimited budget) and you have just severely reduced your market by publishing the first incomplete edition.

Take Georgano's excellent encyclopedias - excellent but incomplete, Rene & Serge Bellu's similar publications - also well researched and essential reference works. A few of our members here are also involved in the publishing of several exciting new reference books. Specialist one-marque publications such as Otto-Vu, the Pegaso history and others covering DB, Delage, Delahaye, Amilcar, Bugatti, Abarth, Talbot Lago, etc. - the list goes on. Some of these are superb, really well-researched reference works but there are others that quite frankly should have never been published. Those have clearly become victims of publishers who have no real understanding of the historical requirements and have only been produced in order 'make money' at others expense.

Back in the early 1990s I edited/published a complete register of every yacht over 30 metres worldwide "Wood's International Yacht Register" with data and photographs and where that was very satisfying to produce it would have been completely out of date within a few weeks of publication if it hadn't been backed up by an accessible database available on-line.

Publishing is changing rapidly with the advent of the Internet, e-book publishing and the consequent easy access to information and images. Protecting one's own data has become paramount unless you are happy to share it with the rest of the world. Therein lies a problem though as there are many unscrupulous people out there who are only too happy to 'steal' (yes, that's the right word) your information/photos, etc. and use it for their own purposes to make money.

At the moment I am working in several areas that have never been adequately covered by print or available on-line data and am examining the best ways of making these available to everyone. A couple of my projects could be feasible for publishing as books whereas others may be offered on-line through a small subscription together with a certain amount of advertising.

My ramble of the day is over now and apologies for repeating myself - I have just written and posted it without re-reading it!

staulan

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Re: Automobile Coachbuilders and Manufacturers
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2013, 04:08:02 PM »
Guys,

Just for my information, how many of you would support something more limited in scope: an offroad encyclopedia?

Offline Paul Jaray

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Re: Automobile Coachbuilders and Manufacturers
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2013, 04:09:17 PM »
I'd love to but it's out of my range of interest  ;)

staulan

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Re: Automobile Coachbuilders and Manufacturers
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2013, 04:15:37 PM »
Some of the best automotive minds of the world are gathered here. If we would find an open format, we could really make history - in all senses: for example, many terms still need to be defined, many models need to be put on their shelves, and some guardian angels should clean the thrash. True, catching all in one place could be a bit unrealistic, but it can be done like a kind of "mother of all offroad sites", something between a website, a wiki and a portal. If I would have at least three positive answers, then who knows...
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 04:29:34 PM by staulan »

Offline als15

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Re: Automobile Coachbuilders and Manufacturers
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2013, 06:09:55 PM »
Some years ago I wrote a book titled "Le fuoristrada Fiat". I think it covers half or more of the Italian off-roads (not only including Fiat regular models, but also several minor ones Fiat-engined).
It could be a good starting point for Italy.

But the main question (quite frequent, indeed, in the last times) is: which is your actual project?
A wiki website? Have you arleady thougth about how to sustain it (unfortunately, every big project needs money or time or both)?
And where are you starting form? I mean, have you already collected a big pile of documents by yourself or are you just starting now?

staulan

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Re: Automobile Coachbuilders and Manufacturers
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2013, 12:03:13 AM »
Thanks for reply, als15. Italy is for me the candy shop for offroad. I remember myself writing on an Italian forum, trying to inform myself on some specific models. Unfortunately, not even the users knew much more.
To answer your question: since 15 years ago I collect offroad vehicles pictures. I probably roamed 3/4 of the free Internet, collecting (only standard models and kitcars, and, at most, professional one-offs, not backyard or racing modifications) more than 5000 models.
In the current form, I had this project in mind for more than 5 years, and recently I reserved a wikia domain. As I'm not doing this for me, I am very happy with their confidentiality and copyright policy. If there will be profits (which I doubt),  I even devised a sharing mechanism. If not, I have something similar in mind for the "image gains".
What I really miss are only the paid sources - books and subscription sites (like Jane's, for example).
It looks fair to me to underline accordingly the contribution of each country: Swaziland could have one country page, while Philippines a national, five or six manufacturer's and a topical one (Jeepneys).
What do you say?

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Re: Automobile Coachbuilders and Manufacturers
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2013, 03:36:54 AM »
As I approach 10000 makes on my hobby site - which took me 10 years to compile, is far from complete and will never be - I too think the scope is too big.

Offline jotage21

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Re: Automobile Coachbuilders and Manufacturers
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2013, 11:06:16 AM »
Guys,

Just for my information, how many of you would support something more limited in scope: an offroad encyclopedia?
There is a good one, but I donīt have the name here, I left it in my library at dadīs house, my apartment is so small that I donīt have space for my books :( . ASAP Iīll give the name

Offline jotage21

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Re: Automobile Coachbuilders and Manufacturers
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2013, 05:36:36 PM »
Guys,

Just for my information, how many of you would support something more limited in scope: an offroad encyclopedia?
There is a good one, but I donīt have the name here, I left it in my library at dadīs house, my apartment is so small that I donīt have space for my books :( . ASAP Iīll give the name
The Complete Encyclopedia of Four-Wheel Drive Vehicles, by Jiri Fiala