Topic: Universal body style directory

[RayTheRat]

This one kinda threw a monkey wrench into the works.  It's basically country/area-specific.  I know that at least one US manufacturer created something similar, but it was very rare and today, very desirable as a collector car.  That's the Ford A-400 (1929-1931) and B-400 (1932) and there may be more than I'm just not aware of. 

What happened, though was to add a different body-style for France and Germany (and possibly others.)  The way I addressed it was to 1) add a column for notes and descriptive text and 2) make a separate row for (for example) the Cabrio-limousine and one for Cabriolet and yet another one for Roadster, which may or may not be the correct form.  Nonetheless, it allows me (or anyone else) to add text the describes the side window configuration.  I used this format for all the entries (where I had information) in the Open Cars 1920-1945 category.  I didn't add the A/B-400, since that's a manufacturer-specific (at least I believe it is) and I'll deal with those later.

See what you think, 

RtR

Nash / Rambler featured this body style in the early 1950's, as well. Here's one with "Helicopter Girl".  

Ahhh, yes.  I'd forgotten about that million-seller.    A well-known web site that starts with "wikipedia" states that the style of car shown with "Helicopter girl" was just referred to as "Convertible" and was the result of difficulty in obtaining sheet steel in the immediate post-WWII and Korean war years.  Apparently, this was their approach to making the most of what they could get.  However, that source isn't always 100 percent correct, so take that explanation with a grain of salt, although the photos in my own reference library seem to bear it out as correct.  Nonetheless, I appreciate the reminder.  I'm not sure that it warrants a separate listing in the next "era's" listings, but we'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

Thanks again,

RtR

[Allan L]

Yes we say coupé even when we spell it coupe.

I have had a quick look at the body styles listed in the last Veteran Car Club (of GB) list of pre 1919 cars I have, and although they are what the owner has nominated, there is something of a pattern!
Swing-seat tonneau is recorded for GB and F made cars.
Side-entrance tonneau is used for US, GB, F and D made cars
Tonneau is used for D, GB, US, F, I and S made cars.
Tourer, Touring and Two-seater are used for more or less every make - may be to do with the VCC being British.
Speedster, Surrey, Roadster and Runabout are used exclusively for US made cars plus a few US-owned others.

[RayTheRat]

Yes we say coupé even when we spell it coupe.

I have had a quick look at the body styles listed in the last Veteran Car Club (of GB) list of pre 1919 cars I have, and although they are what the owner has nominated, there is something of a pattern!
Swing-seat tonneau is recorded for GB and F made cars.

Added to 1895-1919.

Side-entrance tonneau is used for US, GB, F and D made cars

Same as above.

Tonneau is used for D, GB, US, F, I and S made cars.

Same as above.

Tourer, Touring and Two-seater are used for more or less every make - may be to do with the VCC being British.

Changes made where appropriate, but with a question:  Is Two-Seater used for open cars only?  Right now, I have Open Two-Seater used to describe what in the US would be called a Runabout or Roadster.  My wild guess would be that a closed two-seater would fall into the Coupe category.

Speedster, Surrey, Roadster and Runabout are used exclusively for US made cars plus a few US-owned others.

I've made changes to reflect this, also.

Link to spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkSycuAZcRMedFpGOENaVEdfWk5WMUV5RWhjTFY5aHc&pli=1#gid=0

RtR

[Otto Puzzell]

dos-a-dos

As I understand it, two (or more) passengers, seated back-to-back. Like this car:

[RayTheRat]

dos-a-dos

As I understand it, two (or more) passengers, seated back-to-back. Like this car:

Yep.  I've left it in the "Universal" (maybe I otta change that to "Horse Drawn Carriage terms") section without comment.  It's the "compliment" to "vis-a-vis" or face-to-face.  I thought I'd discussed is in reference to traditional dance steps/calls where it's "Do-Si-Do", interpreted to mean two-by-two, but I can't find that post.

As far as those carriage styles, a book could probably be (and probably has been) written about 'em.  I've chosen to leave 'em without explanation for the moment, concentrating on the more common styles (and busting my butt, trying to get my race car running and my tow car prepared.)

RtR

[Iluvatar]

I have a question for you about other open cars.  It seems that most countries/languages have separate terms for cars with "roll-up" or "drop-down" side glass and those that have none, but may have used side curtains in bad weather.  US usage is "Convertible" for those that have "roll-up" (yes, it has to do with the crank mechanism that one uses to "roll the window up or down") side windows and "Roadster" for cars that had no side glass.  "Convertible" (or "Convertible Coupe") generally refers to a 2-door car, as does "Roadster."  For cars with 4 doors, the term "Convertible Sedan" is used for those with glass windows and "Touring Car" (or just "Touring") for cars without side glass. 

Now the question(s): is there an equivalent term for Italian cars of the same description?  Is "Spider/Spyder" equivalent to "Roadster?"  I received a reply that said "Spider" was first coined by an Irish motoring writer (I think that's the way it was stated), but seems to be pretty commonly used to describe Italian cars with no top. 

The difference could be the same of "Barchetta" (no side wondows) and "Convertibile"/"Cabriolet"... "Roadster" is not an italian term, maybe a few italian cars used it but it's not italian.
The term Spider or Spyder fitted for both types, with or without side windows, but only for 2 seats cars... "Spider Sport" is similar to "Barchetta", (this last term was born in the 40s with Touring Ferrari 166MM) and it's similar also to pre-war "Torpedino" (a 2 seats Torpedo)
A lot of confusion indeed...

[RayTheRat]

I have a question for you about other open cars.  It seems that most countries/languages have separate terms for cars with "roll-up" or "drop-down" side glass and those that have none, but may have used side curtains in bad weather.  US usage is "Convertible" for those that have "roll-up" (yes, it has to do with the crank mechanism that one uses to "roll the window up or down") side windows and "Roadster" for cars that had no side glass.  "Convertible" (or "Convertible Coupe") generally refers to a 2-door car, as does "Roadster."  For cars with 4 doors, the term "Convertible Sedan" is used for those with glass windows and "Touring Car" (or just "Touring") for cars without side glass. 

Now the question(s): is there an equivalent term for Italian cars of the same description?  Is "Spider/Spyder" equivalent to "Roadster?"  I received a reply that said "Spider" was first coined by an Irish motoring writer (I think that's the way it was stated), but seems to be pretty commonly used to describe Italian cars with no top. 

The difference could be the same of "Barchetta" (no side wondows) and "Convertibile"/"Cabriolet"... "Roadster" is not an italian term, maybe a few italian cars used it but it's not italian.
The term Spider or Spyder fitted for both types, with or without side windows, but only for 2 seats cars... "Spider Sport" is similar to "Barchetta", (this last term was born in the 40s with Touring Ferrari 166MM) and it's similar also to pre-war "Torpedino" (a 2 seats Torpedo)
A lot of confusion indeed...

Thank you.  While it sounds confusing, it seems to fit into the existing set of definitions fairly well.

The question still remains, "what is a convertible sedan called", that is, what's the proper name for a 4+ seater with moveable side windows?...or is that not applicable to Italian cars of the pre-WWII period?


Thanks again for your help,

RtR

Again, here's the link to the work-in-progress:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkSycuAZcRMedFpGOENaVEdfWk5WMUV5RWhjTFY5aHc&pli=1#gid=0

[Iluvatar]

Thank you.  While it sounds confusing, it seems to fit into the existing set of definitions fairly well.

The question still remains, "what is a convertible sedan called", that is, what's the proper name for a 4+ seater with moveable side windows?...or is that not applicable to Italian cars of the pre-WWII period?

With 4+ seats, side windows and 2 doors it's a cabriolet... but with 4 doors I think there wasn't a proper name... a Torpedo was a 2/4 doors car without side windows...

[RayTheRat]

Thank you.  While it sounds confusing, it seems to fit into the existing set of definitions fairly well.

The question still remains, "what is a convertible sedan called", that is, what's the proper name for a 4+ seater with moveable side windows?...or is that not applicable to Italian cars of the pre-WWII period?

With 4+ seats, side windows and 2 doors it's a cabriolet... but with 4 doors I think there wasn't a proper name... a Torpedo was a 2/4 doors car without side windows...

Ok.  I've listed it as "undefined" at the moment.

Thanks,

RtR

[Paul Jaray]

Here you are few 'manufacturer-specific':

Racy/Racytype Roadster (Abbott-Detroit, Brush, Mora, Van, Velie, Yankee)
Tourabout (Acme, Alpena, American Napier, Benner, Carroll, Chadwick, Chalmers-Detroit, Cole, Crow, Cutting, Diamond T, Durocar, EMF, Enger, Gaeth, Halladay, Herreshoff, Jackson, Kearns, Kenmore, Knox, Lexington, Marathon, Marquette, Mason, Maxwell-Briscoe, Monarch, New York, Nyberg, Oldsmobile, Paterson, Pittsburg Six, Powercar, Pratt, Simplex, Steely, Stutz, Thomas, Vernon, Washington, Wayne)
Sedanet/Sedanette (Adria, King, Lexington, Standard, Stephens)
Gunboat (Allen-Kingston, Berkshire, Charhartt, Faulkner-Blanchard, GJG, Locomobile, Palmer-Singer, Thomas, WFS)
Tourster (Apperson, Cole, Kissel, Kissel-Kar, Premier, Stutz, Vernon)


..and those are only the ones I found browsing the American Cars starting with A (adding the other makers sharing the same designation)!

[RayTheRat]

Hmmm....this may be a bigger can of worms than be handled at the moment.  

I don't know what you think about it, PJ, but I'm tempted to do one of two things: either put these "manufacturer specific" names into a separate file or spreadsheet for the moment or just delay that part of the project until the other parts are more or less complete.

Updated: I added another sheet to the work-in-progress at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkSycuAZcRMedFpGOENaVEdfWk5WMUV5RWhjTFY5aHc&pli=1#gid=0 and named it "Manufacturer-Specific" (pretty creative, huh?), then divided it into the "eras" and moved the M/S (abbreviation for....) sheet.  Let's see of it works.  I'll try to add your latest names to that section.  Right now I'm just taking a break to catch my breath (I don't have much of it to spare) from working on my race car.

What do you think about those options or do you have another suggestion?

Thanks,

RtR

[SACO]

French body style ,1930 :

[RayTheRat]

Kool!  Thanks!

RtR

[Otto Puzzell]

...mylord...

Here one such body - truly a 'horseless carriage":

[Paul Jaray]

and..

[Paul Jaray]

These definitions came from Georgano's Encyclopedia.
There are more or less the ones you will find on another book (A-Z of British Coachbuilders) but there are too many pages there.

[RayTheRat]

I have both books.  I suppose I should spend more time reading 'em.    Maybe after Salt Flats season. 

RtR

ps.  Thanks for posting those scans.  They'll be helpful here.

[Otto Puzzell]

I've recently stumbled across a few cars ID'd as "Toy Tonneau" types. This configurations seems to be similar to a torpedo, but with lower seats and doors. From the same period, the "double Bucket seems to a Toy Tonneua sans doors.

These two are Willys models from 1909:

[grobmotorix]

Here´s a list with all 1930 "official" body styles:

[RayTheRat]

Thank you.  If I ever get back to this (meaning the little crisis I'm caught in at the moment), I do my best to incorporate it with the existing document.  I can see that we're gonna need another column in the database for example photos.  The fun never stops.  LOL!

[Wendax]

Now, here is a rare bird: a Fleischerwagen (butcher's car). From Monday to Saturday it looks like a pickup (except for the side doors at the cargo bed), on Sunday you could add a rear seat and use it as a tourer.

BTW, can anyone identify that car?

[grobmotorix]

Here´s another bodywork scheme from the late 1920´s:

[RayTheRat]

Kool!  I guess I otta go back and update the directory, huh?

Btw, anyone can see and update the spreadsheet.  It's on Google Docs here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkSycuAZcRMedFpGOENaVEdfWk5WMUV5RWhjTFY5aHc&pli=1#gid=0

Ohh...I have no idea what the Fleischerwagen is based on...except that it seems to have independent rear suspension (swing axle-type)...or maybe a bent wheel.   

[grobmotorix]

Here´s a massive german 1906 overview, I´ve put into one big image for all of you:

[R19ml]

I have a Universal Fisherman, has a salmon cast in the head  ....but it has a timer and coil for ignition.  It should be about 8hp somewhere between 600 and 1000rpm or so...here are a few pics of mine...


rh