Author Topic: Seeking information about two gullwing sport cars from London (Read 41193 times)

galrot · « **on:** March 11, 2016, 01:49:17 PM »

Hey.

I'm not sure if you here are aware of this mystery car. I believe it should have been posted on this site before by another user, although I have not been able to find it.

In short a scan from the 1967 Busses, Trolleys & Trams, featuring a 1962 picture of Oxford Street in London, was posted on Flickr in February last year. A small sports coupé with gullwing doors was seen at the edge of the picture:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/rw3-497alh/16588379722/

But no one seemed to know the identity of that car, so it was after a while posted on various forums in an attempt find it out what it was. It was even the mystery car in the Classic & Sports Car magazine but no one have so far been able to properly identify what it is.

I figured out that had to be some well-built unknown homebuilt special after no one seemed to be able to say what it was, but then I come across 1957 Le Mans car that was campaigned by a small London-based brand called Arnott:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78BPk8_yvIo

The way the gullwing doors and the roof on both cars are designed look basically identical. I've looked through many hundreds of pictures I have of different cars of the period and I've asked elsehwere if anyone knew about cars with similar designs (i.e. high-roofed gullwings with striaght shutlines, concealed hinges that cover such a larger portion of the roof) , but so far it seems like these two cars are the only ones with that particular design. And both were located in London in the period ... I've therefore come to the conclusion that they were likely both made by the same hand. Trouble is though that I do not know much about Arnott and have not been able to find much information about their '57 Le Mans effort.

What I can say is that the 1957 Le Mans car looks signicantly more sophisticated than the other cars that have been attributed to Arnott. It have faired-in headlights, concealed hinges on the doors, a flip-up front, a proper fuel door and of course a roof, none of which their other cars I've seen had. I therefore considering it to be likely that a outside coachbuilder/person did the body on that car.

So the reason I'm writing this is to ask whether anyone here are familiar with Arnott or do have any information about who could possible have made the body on their 1957 Le Mans car? Or perhaps if someone knows anything about the mystery car?

I've tried to ask this elsehwere too, but I've had no luck so far. :/

Attached is a picture of the mystery car, a render of how it may look without the women in front and a picture of the Arnott.

Carnut · « **Reply #1 on:** March 11, 2016, 06:44:29 PM »

This picture has certainly been doing the rounds and has appeared on just about every Car Quiz site there is!
It came to my attention when somebody suggested my name as someone who would know what it is (on Pistonheads) but sorry to say I don't. Most suggestions are wide of the mark and are really a bit ridiculous if you really know your cars..
As you say it appeared in Classic & Sports Car too but there have still been no valid suggestions.

It has been discussed at some length here:

http://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/news-information-and-feedback/information-requests-what-is-this-car-thread/1025/

Arnott is a marque which has featured many times here on AutoPuzzles and you can find all the threads just be Searching for "Arnott".
It is only of the very few (in fact the only one I know of) car makes which was founded and operated by a woman, Daphne Arnott.
But whilst the windscreen of the Arnott you have posted and the mystery car may well be sourced from the same place I don't see other similairties, though it is an interesting suggestion and could be an attempt to branch out into road cars (essentially Arnotts were competition cars).

No-one here has been able to identify it, and if barrett and Quiller don't know it then it's going to be a bit of a lost cause I'm afraid..
But we'll keep looking!

galrot · « **Reply #2 on:** March 11, 2016, 07:16:09 PM »

The similarities that I see between the car is not so much about the windshield (which do looks similar, but that it could easily have been changed between each individual designs anyway) but rather how the roof/gullwings are designed. There are a number of unusal features that are the same with both designs:

1. Is how high the roof is relative to the windshield. On both cars the roof raises to about the point marked red. This gives the cars a unusually bubling roof-line and makes a large parts of the gullwing shutlines on the roof of the Arnott visible when seen from the front (see the youtube video for that).

2. Is how straight the edges are. All gullwing designs I've seen have rounded edges, but here they both have a almost 90 degree bend to them.

3. Is how large parts of the roof is actually covered by the gullwing doors. On both cars there is only a small pillar of continuous width (like on a t-top) in the midle and thin strip around the windshield that is part of the roof, while the rest is part of the doors. You are effectively lifiting up the whole roof when you open the door.

4. The concealed hinges on both cars. This is admittedly probably the most common features of them, but it still not that usual on a one-off in the period. And especially not on cars that weren't built by professional coachbuilders.

Do you know any other cars with these features?

I have managed to find quite a lot of information about Arnott itself through my searches now, but I found little about the desig of their 1957 Le Mans coupé. As mentioned I think it is likely that Arnott recieved some outside help on it given how different it is from their other cars. I'm therefore looking to see if anyone could confirm that or give any other background information about the car. I was thinking that perhaps the 1957 Arnott Le Mans had been featured in a motorsport magazine article back in the day that someone here knew about or something.

And just for the record: I'm interested in finding information about who designed and made the Arnott coupé even if it turns out it never leades to a trace of the mystery car.

Carnut · « **Reply #3 on:** March 12, 2016, 10:14:43 AM »

It's a valid theory and is definitely worth further investigation.
You'll be a hero on several sites if you find the answer!

galrot · « **Reply #4 on:** March 12, 2016, 10:46:04 AM »

The issue is that there does not appear to be much information about the Arnott coupé available either, at least not online. Something which I have found quite surprising given how prolific the car is by obscure cars standards (i.e. it competed in Le Mans, it survived, have been shown at a concours, there is a youtube video on it etc.). No one on any forum I have asked have been able to tell me who designed and built the body. Duncan Rabagliat, who others have claimed to have some knowledge about the cars, have been asked by another user on Pistonhead and he did not know who was behind the body on the Arnott either. So basically I have now gone from having one unidentified well-built gullwing coupé in '60s London to having that unidentified car + another largely unidentified well-built gullwing coupe from late '50s London too.

It's one thing that the creator of the small sport coupé in Oxford Street is not known, but I find it really hard to accept that no one have any idea about who was behind the Le Mans car either. Hence I thought perhaps someone here knew, as otherwise I'm not really sure where I could find that information.

rickjames8 · « **Reply #5 on:** September 09, 2018, 03:24:15 PM »

Hey-

I haven't posted here in a long time, but I recall this group to be one of the most amazing sets of people to be able to identify cars. I have a photo of a vehicle that seems to be stumping people, but I can't post it as a puzzle as I don't know the correct answer. Would this room be the right place to ask for assistance?

Attached is the photo. One in it's original form, one with the foreground people photoshopped out.

Any ideas?

Here is the thread that started it: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156617886753180&set=pcb.261555687817974&type=3

nicanary · « **Reply #6 on:** September 10, 2018, 08:35:51 AM »

The car has actually been posted on here (by me!) in our section for " News, Information and Feedback" under the "What is this car?" thread. It's a real enigma, no doubt. It's been the subject of many questions on car-related websites all over the place, even being printed in Classic & Sportscar magazine as their monthly puzzle car. It's so striking that you'd think someone, somewhere would know the answer.

General consensus seems to be a better-than-average kitcar body that never achieved production. Could it have been an exhibit at the Racing Car Show? Anyone out there have the show programme for 1962 or 63? A member of Pistonheads website has actually made a replica on a 3-D printer! Whoever manages to solve this is going to be an internet hero.

Weatherballoon · « **Reply #7 on:** November 10, 2019, 05:21:51 PM »

As has been stated elsewhere on the internet, the vehicle in question does appear to possess gull wing doors. Perhaps that will be the key to finding it's identity?

Weatherballoon · « **Reply #8 on:** November 17, 2019, 05:18:52 PM »

Some quick looking led me to discover that there are multiple pages for this car on this website, perhaps they should be consolidated?

Carnut · « **Reply #9 on:** November 18, 2019, 11:47:03 AM »

Could do - if I could find the other/s...

nicanary · « **Reply #10 on:** November 18, 2019, 04:00:04 PM »

Quote from: Carnut on November 18, 2019, 11:47:03 AM

Could do - if I could find the other/s...

I posted it on 21.8.2017 in the Information Requested thread. I don't think there are any replies.

Weatherballoon · « **Reply #11 on:** November 18, 2019, 05:37:30 PM »

I know there is one from years earlier but I neglected to write it down.

Weatherballoon · « **Reply #12 on:** November 18, 2019, 05:43:02 PM »

While searching for it I found that Galrot posted about it in 2016.

Weatherballoon · « **Reply #13 on:** November 18, 2019, 05:47:49 PM »

I am unable to find the other post, I believe Galrot's post to be the one I had seen.

gte4289 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 27, 2020, 11:12:38 AM »

https://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/features-stories-and-photos/seeking-information-about-two-gullwing-sport-cars-from-london/

Wendax · « **Reply #15 on:** February 27, 2020, 12:09:51 PM »

Merged

StrongComputer · « **Reply #16 on:** April 17, 2021, 03:23:46 PM »

It is 100% a Sunbeam Alpine.

StrongComputer · « **Reply #17 on:** April 17, 2021, 04:06:28 PM »

Unfortunately my hand has been forced somewhat by a person that plagarises my work. Would have personally used some much better images and they will follow. The car is an Alpine. As an initial starting point, please check out the area to the right of the lady with the red top. It is not a driver. It is not a reflection of her. It is a drivers side wheel arch covered with a ribbed material/plastic. Much more to follow.

StrongComputer · « **Reply #18 on:** April 17, 2021, 04:58:39 PM »

Have not got time to post everything repeatedly on many forums, so am going to post mainly (no favouritism, just random) here. https://forum.retro-rides.org/thread/191783/mystery-car-pistonheads?page=7&scrollTo=2671662

Carnut · « **Reply #19 on:** April 18, 2021, 07:42:42 AM »

Thanks StrongComputer. I've resized your pictures so we can see the whole thing at a glance.
It must be based on something so you might be right, which I say because of the similar (identical?) wheelbase.
Many commentators assumed it to be a Sunbeam Alpine going only by the shape of the rear wings, but apart from the wheelbase everything else is different. But if someone is making a new body based on an existing car why not make it completely different?!

I'm beginning to wonder if irrefutable evidence will ever be provided, as this conundrum has been running for a number of years now!

StrongComputer · « **Reply #20 on:** April 18, 2021, 02:43:05 PM »

Hi CarNut. Some more proof using a variety of real and inferred data. I modelled part of Oxford Street using an old OS map as the layout has changed a lot over the last 50 plus years.

Also, the car works in the real world and is not as massive a departure from the standard car as you would believe. Engine fits (scanned an original car to prove), just. Most of the upper structure including hinges, apart from boot would use the existing chassis. Please also look at where the roof meets the lower car body. There is little if any radius. I reckon the roof could have been bolted on or such like.

Please keep firing questions. I have studied this picture for three plus years and started from a completely different view. Thought thirties special based on where I wrongly thought the driver was sitting.

Am 100% correct on this, but have so far succeeded in only convincing one friend (who may have been being kind) that the car is an Alpine. Will keep going, which tragically for me involves mocking up the wrong answers, until the weight of evidence is so great the whole thing becomes like the last scene of 12 Angry Men (dressed up as an internet army).

StrongComputer · « **Reply #21 on:** April 18, 2021, 02:45:37 PM »

....Picture size is working well for me.........................

727 · « **Reply #22 on:** April 19, 2021, 04:14:15 PM »

Happy to see someone else enjoying SolidWorks.

Johno · « **Reply #23 on:** July 04, 2022, 04:05:01 PM »

It would seem that someone (possibly already in this post) had now rendered a model of the car. There are pictures in the 50s/60s Special Builders group on facebook. I'm not going to post them here as they represent hundreds of hours of work and belong to the auther of the post. There is also a youtube video of the doors working and by the same person an animation of it travelling. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhMICMe_qIk

News:

Author Topic: Seeking information about two gullwing sport cars from London (Read 41193 times)