Author Topic: Monty497 - Solved: 1899 Waltham steam (or perhaps a New England Motor Carriage?)  (Read 1114 times)

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Offline el_monty

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Fellow Autopuzzlers, for a point please tell me the marque and year, and why the particular unit in this picture was noteworthy.

Don't be naughty! Stay away from Google Search by Image, kids.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 06:51:31 AM by el_monty »
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Offline el_monty

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Re: Monty497
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2019, 03:52:27 PM »
Up to the Experts.
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Offline Fёdor

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Re: Monty497
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2019, 01:52:11 AM »
american

Offline el_monty

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Re: Monty497
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2019, 05:06:02 AM »
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans" - John Lennon

Offline Mogul

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Re: Monty497
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2019, 05:18:02 AM »
1900 Locomobile Steamer

Offline el_monty

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Re: Monty497
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2019, 06:24:38 AM »
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans" - John Lennon

Offline hermanoto

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Re: Monty497
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2019, 06:44:20 AM »
American Electric Runabout, ca. 1900

Offline el_monty

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Re: Monty497
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2019, 07:02:12 AM »
American Electric Runabout, ca. 1900

No
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Offline Mogul

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Re: Monty497
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2019, 09:16:34 AM »
New England Motor Carriage Co. Waltlham, MA 1898 - 1900. Light steam buggy with a vertical 2-cylinder engine, chain drive, and tiller steering.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2019, 09:21:19 AM by Mogul »

Offline el_monty

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Re: Monty497
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2019, 09:34:40 AM »
New England Motor Carriage Co. Waltlham, MA 1898 - 1900. Light steam buggy with a vertical 2-cylinder engine, chain drive, and tiller steering.

No, but you are close...
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Offline Mogul

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Re: Monty497
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2019, 09:38:47 AM »
It then has to be the "Waltham / American Waltham"

Offline el_monty

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Re: Monty497
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2019, 02:24:56 PM »
It then has to be the "Waltham / American Waltham"
Yes it's a Waltham! Locked for you to find the particular unit in the picture .
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Re: Monty497
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2019, 04:42:08 AM »
Waltham Steam Buggy Runabout.

Offline el_monty

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Re: Monty497
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2019, 06:15:31 AM »
Waltham Steam Buggy Runabout.

No sorry, I don't mean the model. I mean what was notable about the actual unit that appears in the puzzle picture. Why was it photographed and who is driving it? Still locked.
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Offline Mogul

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Re: Monty497
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2019, 08:49:40 AM »
Driving it is Ucal-Henri Dandurand, next to him his wife, Blanche Taillefer. First car in the streets of Montreal on the 21th November 1899.
This is what I found.
Now, I'm pretty certain that this is not a Waltham, but a "New England Motor Carriage Co. Steamer". If you look at any Waltham Manufacturing Co or New England Motor Carriage Co. pictures, they don't have the rear corner on the rear chopped as in the picture.
Waltham Manufacturing Co & American Waltham are not related at all, both are from Waltham MA. but different companies. The New England Motor Carriage Co. is also from Waltlham, MA. and all pictures I found from that Steamer have the "chopped" rear corner. I suspect that all being from Waltham, some one got it wrong at some stage. I leave it up to you to judge what it is.

Offline el_monty

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Re: Monty497
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2019, 03:01:47 PM »
You found the complete answer, well done. Your 100th point has been awarded.
I agree with you that the puzzle car looks very, very similar to the New England Motor Carriage Co. Steamer. I am just following what the original, serious-sounding source for these pictures, the Centre d'Histoire de Montreal, says: That the first car in Montreal, in 1899, was a Waltham Steam car, purchased by Mr. Dandurand, and that it is the pictured car.
(I add another picture, this time with Mrs. Dandurand at the tiller)

If anyone can offer convincing proof to the contrary, of course they will be welcome to earn an extra point.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans" - John Lennon

Offline Mogul

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Re: Monty497 - Solved: 1899 Waltham steam car - 1st car in Montreal
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2019, 08:22:08 AM »
I will send you lonks to different sites, there you can see, I think it is pretty conclusive proof of my case, the car in your picture is a New England Motor Carriage and not a Waltham as claimed in the Atricle you refere to. Further the Waltham does not have the round white dot on the side, the New England Motor Carriage has. Also the the cut off rear edge is typical for the New England Motor Carriage.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 08:29:19 AM by Mogul »

Offline el_monty

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Re: Monty497 - Solved: 1899 Waltham steam car - 1st car in Montreal
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2019, 06:50:45 AM »
Hi Mogul. I was aware of the sources you have sent me, and, I repeat, of the remarkable similarity of shape between the New England and the puzzle car; I had not noticed the detail of the white dot, which indeed reinforces your argument. I had also noticed some (small) differences, such as the shape and size of the side slats, or the shape at the bottom right corner of the entrance to the car. Besides, these cars were built to order, so the styling of individual cars from each builder was probably not as rigidly defined as it is today (for example, I have seen a picture of a car identified as a 1899 New England, without the cut off rear edge, I can send you the link).  I understand the case you're making, and I agree it makes sense, and there is a sizeable probability that the puzzle car is in fact a New England, but I hope you also understand that I if a reasonably reputable source like the Centre d'Histoire de Montreal (which is in possession of the Dandurand's family photographs and documents) says it's a Waltham, I cannot dismiss that out of hand. What I was hoping for was an alternative, equally reputable source that stated that Dandurand's first car was actually a New England, but I doubt such source exists. Anyway, I don't think this conundrum is worth giving any more thought.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans" - John Lennon