Topic: Futuristic, Concept or Other. Define it. (Kudos to Motorcar1)

[Ultra]

Motorcar1 sent me the following in a PM.  I am trying to encourage him to start threads for himself.  He seems to have the knack for it, IMHO.

==========================================================

Sir,
Have been totally enjoying this site you created.

I do not know how to pose this question, but it may be very entertaining to the writers and readers.

I have asked this question to many historians over the years,  they just seem to tap dance and blow it off, seems no definitions have been cemented.

As food for thought, it may make for a good post for continuing thought and debate to answer.

POINT;
What documents a car as a futuristic car,
is it unknowingly creating what is to come with nothing predating???

What documents a car as a concept car,
is this an exercise in what a person might want to test the buying publics taste on?

What documents a car as a Custom car,
is that one that is built from excisting frames and bodies, point, most of the above are built that way to a certain extent?

In possible definition, many national writers use the above in non definitive ways.
What are the definitions for history sake???

Kind of dumb maybe, but is the basis of what defines certain cars, yet the above has never been defined to place in Historical archives, at least not that I am aware of Sir.
Might this be fun?
With all respect, what a great site,
John

==========================================================

John, we are glad you are enjoying it.  What makes this site work is the contributions from its members.  You are now one of the members.  Don't be shy, start threads with your ideas and share your photos.  You will make the site better and we will all benefit from your contributions.

Charlie.

[ImpishGrin]

Alright, let's try ...

A CONCEPT car is a car that's created with the purpose of showcasing some new ideas, technological or other solutions, or to preview an upcoming(or at least potential) model, in order to get feedback from the public about it.

A SHOW car is a car that's created with the prurpose of showing-off It's shown to generate buzz, publicity, it's beautiful, controversial, outrageous, it features striking, impressive and eye-catching (though usually totally impractical) solutions.

A CUSTOM car (I may be wrong here, as it's a largely American phenomenon to me and I'm not that good at American cars and culture) is a car created on the basis of a production car, but modified visually to the extent of often being beyond recognition. As opposed to tuning, customization is not focused on performance and sporty looks. Customs are usually made by individuals or aftermarket companies.

A FUTURISTIC car is a car that looks in a way associated at the time of its conception with what the future will look like.

[Paul Jaray]

I was waititng someone's idea to steal it! I'm not good in long writings so...

Concept car: I agree with ImpishGrin, but only the first part of his definition, the last part for me suits the Prototype definition.
Show car: cars made for Shows or to show, no real intent to sell it but a way to have a feedback for further developments.
Custom car: basically a modified car.
Futuristic car: togheter with the Show cars, they show the vision of a ...future..car.

But I can't really see a well defined definition for each, "custom cars" are also Barris's creations, and they are something more than just modified cars, a concept car may be intended as a futuristic cars when it is developed to show the new tecnologies available, but at the same time, isn't this a show car? Man, I don't know.

[ImpishGrin]

Concept car: I agree with ImpishGrin, but only the first part of his definition, the last part for me suits the Prototype definition.

A PROTOTYPE is strictly a production term. As the name suggests ("protos" means "first" in greek) it's the first example of its type, or kind. It's a car that's made for evaluating a proposed design, but internally. It's usually not shown publicly, it's just tested and evaluated. After prototypes, there come the pre-production vehicles.

And of course, a futuristic vehicle can be a concept car, a show car (usually they are), a custom or even a production car. It simply describes the quality of being ahead of its time in terms of design and technological advancement. The Aston Martin Lagonda for example was universally described as futuristic, even long after it entered production, because of its styling and use of an array of advanced technologies inside.

[Paul Jaray]

I know the meaning of Prototype, but often a show car is called Prototype. There are thousands of cars that remained at the prototype stage and some of them were never meant to be produced. Just try to goolge the word, you'll find all sort of concept/show cars!

[Otto Puzzell]

Great discussion so far. Another grey area is that between "hot rods" and "customs". Hot rods typically skew toward performance mods, and customs skew toward tweaking the appearance.

However, it's not unusual to see both at the same events (Autorama shows in the US, for instance). It's also common to see "hot rods" that have been massaged visually to a fair-thee-well, and "customs" that are packed with go-fast bits.

The definition of  "concept car", traditionally, was interchangeable with "show car" or "car of the future". Cars that were trotted out as part of GM's Motorama shows were covered in the press at the time as "show cars" or "cars of the future". Now, those same cars are commonly referred to as concept cars.

I'd agree with the assertions above - a prototype is a pre-production proof-of-concept car, as visual and mechanical parts are built to test tooling, manufacturing techniques, etc. However, the realities of manufacturing and certification testing in the modern world often mean many prototypes of a vehicle are built before production is OK'd. The definition of "prototype" has also been blurred by prototype racing classes, which almost always include more than one of a type being built -  and rarely do they become 'production' cars.

[motorcar1]

Gentlemen,
First off, Kudos to you Ultra, for seeing the problems and posting the topic!!!

We posed these very questions to notable Historians over the past 22 years, going on 23 now, this was in search of History on the Harris Car.

Its kind of funny, that many notable writers and historians use the words we are discussing and most cintradict each other.
We are here to set definitive meanings to the topic, something NO ONE else has ever done.

I figured that;
Show car,
concept car,
hot rod,
Futuristic,
Custom,
Prototype
would all come up in figuring out the definitions, all seem to bleed together, but yet are distinct in their own rights.

Maybe thats why we always ran into brick walls with no answer's??
Lets figure it out!!

Maybe at the end of discussion and input,
Possibly Ultra can formulate all the conclusions into definition for each term and  for the world to know, as nobody has ever done it, guess we are setting the std here, coool huh!!

The replies so far are being debated, cool that each reply has an opinion, but yet another brings forth more detail and contradicts in another way.

Do so hope we can get to definitive answer's for each.

Sooooo,

Futuristic, could this be defined as something that someone creates that is unheard of  or ever seen in design and form at the time?

Show car, maybe all of the topic points are show cars, do we need to go their on this one, CAN we all agree to agree that it encompasses all???
If so, we conquered one definition??

Hot rod, is that like a pro mod of modern day, or is it more pronounced as an older 20's to 30's etcetera car as it has been defined forever??
Most hotrods seem to be open engine and many are fenderless?
Maybe the pro mods are the modern day hot rods, but yet they seem to overwhelmingly have full fenders and hoods?

Custom, not unlike a hotrod, if we keep an open mind, maybe by definition it is a larger scale car, not like early hotrods, but yet their basis is from a manufactured car where as a person personalizes the stock build to their own tatse???

Concept, wow, thats tough, is it possibly the exercise of a builder to display what they are going to build, and these concepts defines there new car lines or equipment?

Prototype, wow again, are they bleeding together, I still have problems with even writing anything on this one, maybe will formulate an opinion when I hear others thoughts.

Are we having fun yet, difficult, yes, can we find definitive definitions, we shall see.

Glad to be here,
John

[Ultra]

Possibly Ultra can formulate all the conclusions into definition for each term and  for the world to know, as nobody has ever done it,

No.  It isn't for me to say.  I would be glad however to offer my  :2˘: as to what they should be and let this group come to its own conclusions.

First off: There will and HAS to be category bleed.

A show car is a car that has been in a show. 

A concept car is a car that was created, with foreknowledge, to express design concepts intended for potential future production.

A hot rod is a private modification of a production vehicle with street performance being the underlying theme.

A futuristic car is one that attempts to forecast the future within the design of the vehicle.

A custom car is a modification of a production vehicle.

A prototype car is a pre-production representation of the designers vision.

[faksta]

To be honest, for me concept car and futuristic car are kind of the same. Their puspore os to show the potentianl of a company, to attract customers, to define a direction in design and (and seldomly 'or')  technology.

Speaking about custom and hot rod, I need to think more 

[motorcar1]

Ultra,
Do agree that some bleeding will occur, believe that most will agree, as what we are defining does bleed over.

Can we attempt to first put the "Show Car definition" in the "agreed" upon area?

This seems to be the simple one?
Something like this but yet placed into better wording?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Any type or design of automobile, irregardless of make, model or year that has been in outdoor or indoor public display for viewing?
Meets the shows standards, be it a lower standard or upper concourse standard, for acceptance to be displayed and shown
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Can we all form a quick opinion and segregate it off to the side, locked but yet still open if it is deemed a change is needed???

The others are not going to be easy.
PS, I read talk on the site of making submissions and links to Hemmings< might this be a perfect ice breaker???
Just food for thought, maybe move on to the topic at hand for submission or the one I read that has been brought up first,  and on and on?

[Ultra]

We have made submissions to Hemmings in the past.  Trademark issues and what-not involving the photos and sources made that a lot of work with little to no return.  Hence, with all of our overtures to outside interests being overlooked we have moved on as an individual entity and I believe at this time that is the best way forward.  Besides, I don't think any traditional publication can compete with us on either overall rare auto knowledge or the interactivity of our website with its readers.

[Paul Jaray]

Here are some pictures sent me by John:
In the first two we can see a futuristic car, the Aptera, and in the others, how the national magazine writers define the concepts.


 

[motorcar1]

Francesco,
Glad you thought they were good for the work we all are doing here.

Have read the replies, I think they are very good.
Do have a few points I would like to make about these pictures.

You will notice that the writers themselves call the three new cars, "concept"
Kind of ironic that this magazine came yesterday, helps out with the discussion.
I have a hard time bleeding futuristic with the concept term we are trying to define.

The Aperta, this to me is a modern day Futuristic Car.
The builders are dancing to their own drum beat and music, wouldn't you say??

Seems that even in 2009, a futuristic car can fall back in design to the early Aero's, Tear drop and Streamliner style.
Guess the old boys really knew what they were doing, HUH>>>

WELL, blast away, lets see what everybody thinks???
JOHN

[faksta]

I don't know... Aptera clearly is a futuristic car, but in that case I think it could be more of a trait than a destination. It's like saying that it's white. But this is my personal opinion.

[motorcar1]

Guys,
Here is what has been posted for Futuristic cars from the topic area.
Maybe if we single it down to one at a time, we can find common ground.

The articles with the pictures that Paul posted is very typical of what the magazines write.

The terms are always confusing, thi is also pointed out in our replies, we ourselves contradict what they wrote.
There is no rhyme nor rythem to any of it.

OUR COMBINEDTHOUGHTS & POST'S ON FUTURISTIC

1-I don't know... Aptera clearly is a futuristic car, but in that case I think it could be more of a trait than a destination.

2-The Aperta, this to me is a modern day Futuristic Car.

3-To be honest, for me concept car and futuristic car are kind of the same. Their puspore os to show the potentianl of a company, to attract customers, to define a direction in design and (and seldomly 'or')  technology

4-A futuristic car is one that attempts to forecast the future within the design of the vehicle.

5-Futuristic, could this be defined as something that someone creates that is unheard of  or ever seen in design and form at the time?

6-The definition of  "concept car", traditionally, was interchangeable with "show car" or "car of the future". Cars that were trotted out as part of GM's Motorama shows were covered in the press at the time as "show cars" or "cars of the future.
Otto Puzzle, what you wrote here is very true, GM themselves, as well as national writers combined
show car>> concept>>> and Future. What are they in fact though?

-7Futuristic car: togheter with the Show cars, they show the vision of a ...future..car.


8-What documents a car as a futuristic car,
is it unknowingly creating what is to come with nothing predating???


ROUGH VERSION OF A FUTURISTIC CAR FOR DEBATE

In majority  thought, 
A-a futuristic car is ultimately a show car.,
Stands to reason.

FURTHER SORTING THROUGH WHAT WAS WROTE;
B- A car design using future vision,
1-creating what is to come, 
2-" or "cars of the future,
3-Aptera clearly is a futuristic car,
4-The Aperta, this to me is a modern day Futuristic Car.,
5-A futuristic car is one that attempts to forecast the future within the design ,
6-they show the vision of a ...future..car.,
7-to define a direction in design,
8-someone creates that is unheard of  or ever seen in design and form at the time?

This is what we have to work with per what has been writen.
Actually, it brings broad scope of thought but yet zeros in on some language for defintion.

#We all seem to, in certain words, bring forth that it is to forecast the future in design,

#Creating cars of the future through vision

#One that is unheard of in design.

The futuristic car in the picture Paul posted for me,
It would seem in every sense,  futuristic in modern design BUT ironically falling back to older designs>>>>>
 
I would argue that Aero Cars, Tear Drop Cars, Streamlined cars and factory cars such as the, Rumpler, Tatra, 1938 Buick Y job,  Harris Car, Lincolns of the 50's, Thunderbolts, 54 Oldsmobile and the list goes on, are futuristic.


These all are significant automobiles which have common ground as being "basicly " one off shocking cars, all are extravagent and leave the public with a taste of what may come in the future.

Yes, some went into production, but yet THERE advanced future design, when built, was unheard of and sometimes scoffed at.
Seems that None can be original except the one picture Paul sent me of a late 1800's aero type bullet car, a Futuristic car by definition? Started futuristic designing?

Are they creations of what is thought the future will hold in design.

WE ARE BASICLY RUNNING OUT OF DESIGN FOR WHAT CAN BE CONSTRUED AS A FUTURISTIC CAR, I think!!!!!!
ALL GOOD THINGS DO COME TO AN END.

With this condensed down, can we each try and condense everything above and form a defintion of which we can combine together?
If, at a later time, when we are defining the other catagories and something needs to be added or addressed, >>can we break into our combined defintion and change it at that time?

It is hard to set aside other catagories, thats why I think  writers and historians have forever used each loosely  and most often, contradicted themselves and others.

At the end of our quest, if we get there, maybe we should attach multiples of pictures for what we define as FUTURISTIC?

Class 101, Auto Puzzles Definition of a Futuristic car:
Lets hear your thoughts?
john

[Paul Jaray]

Since this is a discussion about the meaning of some words (and since I'm not mothertoungue) I'll suggest to start from the definitions we can find on the dictionary:
(I do not have an English dictionary at hand, so that's what I found on the net)

• Futuristic: fu·tur·is·tic
  adj.
  1. Of or relating to the future.
  2.
      a. Of, characterized by, or expressing a vision of the future: (futuristic decor).
      b. Being ahead of the times; innovative or revolutionary: (futuristic computer software).
  3. Of or relating to futurism. 
  In our context the meaning is in my opinion the #2. 
• A concept car or show car is a car prototype made to showcase a concept, new styling, technology and more. They are often shown at motor shows to gauge customer reaction to new and radical designs which may or may not have a chance of being produced.
  General Motors designer Harley Earl is generally credited with inventing the concept, or show, car, and definitely did much to popularize it through its traveling Motorama shows of the 1950s.
  Concept cars never go into production directly; in modern times all would have to undergo many changes before the design is finalized for the sake of practicality, safety and cost. Concept cars are often radical in engine or design:
  Some use non-traditional, exotic, or expensive materials, ranging from paper to carbon fiber to refined alloys.
  Others have unique layouts, such as gullwing doors, 3 or 6 (or more) wheels, or special abilities not usually found on cars.
  Because of these often impractical or unprofitable leanings, many concept cars never get past scale models, or even drawings in computer design. Other more traditional concepts can be developed into fully drivable (operational) vehicles with a working drivetrain and accessories. The state of most concept cars lies somewhere in between and does not represent the final product. A very small proportion of concept cars are functional to any useful extent, most cannot move safely at anything above 10 mph.
  Inoperative "mock-ups" are usually made of wax, clay, metal, fiberglass, plastic or a combination thereof.
  If drivable, the drivetrain is often borrowed from a production vehicle from the same company, or may have defects and imperfections in design. They can also be quite refined.
  After a concept car's useful life is over, the cars are usually destroyed. Some survive, however, either in a company's museum or hidden away in storage.
  (source: Wikipedia)
  Here the Concept car is cosidered such as a show car.   
• pro·to·type
  n.
  1. An original type, form, or instance serving as a basis or standard for later stages.
  2. An original, full-scale, and usually working model of a new product or new version of an existing product.
  3. An early, typical example.
  4. Biology A form or species that serves as an original type or example.
  
  All the first 3 meanings are in use in our field. 
• stream·lined
  adj.
  1.
      a. Designed or arranged to offer the least resistance to fluid flow.
      b. Reduced to essentials; lacking anything extra.
      c. Effectively organized or simplified: a streamlined method of production.
  2. Having flowing, graceful lines; sleek: a streamlined convertible.
  3. Improved in appearance or efficiency; modernized 

The discussion about Aero cars, Teardrop cars or Streamliner cars is quite different: it refers only to the shape of the object. A Teardrop (like the Arrowhead, the Arrowplane, the Pribil, the Comet) car can be also Aero car (the teardrop is the most aerodynamic configuration that a liquid can assume in the air). An Aero car can have different shapes than a Teardrop, like Harris's car, or some rocket-inspired cars, and all of them can also be considered streamliner, because streamlined is "Designed or arranged to offer the least resistance to fluid flow" but you can do that with a rocket, a teardrop or another form (like the Harris).

My Conclusions:
1) There are some terms that refer to the purpose of the object (Concept car, Show car, Prototype) that changes according to the context:
we can have a Honda Civic Concept that is basically the final Civic, or the Honda Spocket Concept, that is far away to be produced.The latter one can be considered also a Show car and the first one a prototype.
2) Other terms refer to the shape of the object (Teardrop, Aerodynamic, Streamliner,Rocket), and not the use\purpose, so we can have a Streamliner Chrysler Airflow, (that is not a Concept or a Show car) but also a Streamliner such as Harris' car, that is not a Show car nor a production car either.
3) Other terms refer to the ...(can't find the right word)...value... we give to the object (Futuristic, Retro,...), so we can have a Fututristic concept car, such as a Peugeot Moonster, but also some futuristic elements on some production cars (like some dashboards). A totally futuristic production car is (IMHO) too risky for any manufacturer, that's why their visions are all in the concepts and show cars, and only small manufacturers (see Aptera) take the challenge to explore the future with a production car.

About Customs and Hot-Rods I think it's easier:

• hot rod also hot-rod
  Noun
  a car with an engine that has been modified to produce increased power
  n. Slang
  An automobile that has been rebuilt or modified to increase its speed and acceleration
  
  Hot rods are cars that have been customized for performance and/or appearance. Nobody knows for sure the origin of the term "hot rod." One explanation is that the term is a contraction of "hot roadster," meaning a roadster that was modified for speed. Open roadsters were the cars of choice to modify because they were light. Hot Rod may also refer to the cam or pushrods inside the engine or other to the exposed frame rails of such an automobile. It was adopted in the 1930s or 1940s as the name of a car that had been "hopped up" by modifying the cam to achieve higher performance.
• A custom car is a phrase that became prominent in American pop culture in the 1950s, and has enjoyed special interest popularity since that time. It relates to a passenger vehicle that has been modified to improve its performance by altering or replacing the engine and transmission and to make it look "unique", unlike any car that might have been factory finished, always a personal "styling" statement by the re-styler/re-builder.
  A development of hot rodding, the change in name corresponded to the change in the design of the cars being modified. The first hot rods were pre-WWII cars, with running boards and simple fenders over the wheels. These were modified by removing the running boards and either removing the fenders entirely or replacing them with very light "cycle fenders". The object was to put the most powerful engine in the lightest possible frame and body combination. The suspension was usually altered to make the car lower; the front was often made much lower than the rear. 
(source: Wikipedia)

So after the Hot-rod, (radical and relatively cheap modifications) the attention moved to the global design of the car. The hard part is to define when an hot-rod became a Custom and viceversa, but that's not so important since it wasn't when we have to discuss a Gran Turismo and a Race car (Ferrari 250 GTO?)


wow, I really wrote all this?

[motorcar1]

PJ,
LOVED YOUR REMARK, WOW I WROTE ALL OF THIS !!!!!

IT IS ALL RATHER CONFUSING, HUH

WE THINK THAT IS WHY NOTHING HAS EVER REALLY BEEN DEFINED FOR AUTOMOBILES.

PROBABLY THE ONLY TOPICS IN AUTUMOBILE RESEARCH AND THOUGHTS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN TRULY ADDRESSED.

EVERYBODY SEEMS TO WRITE AND DOCUMENT BY THEIR OWN DRUM BEAT, HUH?

VERY GOOD POST PJ,

I WILL POST SOME MORE THOUGHTS LATER.
STILL THINK, DUMBIE ME, HERE I AM THINKING AGAIN, WE MIGHT TRY AND ADDRESS EACH ONE SEPERATLY AND THEN GO BACK AND CORRECT OR CHANGE EACH ONE AS WE PROGRESS ON.

THEY ALL SEEM TO BLEND TOGETHER BUT YET EACH CARRIES ITS OWN TRAITS, JUST AS WAS POINTED OUT IN YOUR POST & DICTIONARY DEFINITIONS PJ.

TRULY AM GLAD THAT MEANINGFULL  DEFINITIONS ARE BEING ADDRESSED, NO BETTER AND BEFITTING PLACE THAN >>>>>AUTOPUZZLES>>>>>

JOHN

[Ultra]

John,

Typing in all caps is considered SHOUTING on the internet.

 

Great thread!!!!

Charlie

[motorcar1]

Ultra,
I did not relate to the fact that the capitals represented shouting,

I was in a hurry and just started writing, did not even think about the words being in capitals.

PJ's post is really quite interesting, I need to think !!!

Your opinions, at the very bottom of each definition, ( went past me ) when first reading.

Might we tweak the dictionary & writers ones above, maybe ours might be a little more detailed in defintion

The Show car definition I drafted up for thought, maybe about 4 posts back, can we all agree that it is close or fine as it is to set aside, go back if we need to re-address???

One will be knocked out of the way.

To be quite honest, we truly believe, that when AutoPuzzles defintions get around>>>> they will become the adopted and amended guidlines that writers and historians use, does anybody else think so?

Sorry Charlie, will keep my mind in regular writing, promise not to shout, was not intended, thanks for the comment on the topic.
It takes all to make it a topic, thanks to you guys for making it a topic>>
John

[Ultra]

John,

There is no need to apologize.  I was just sharing the info, not scolding.  All is well.

Post in more place on more topics.  Express yourself.  That is why this place is here.  We live or die, thrive or fail to survive, all on the contributions of the people who visit here.  Thanks for being one of those folks.

Charlie

[motorcar1]

Well here goes,
Note>>>> PJ's defintions posted herein, as authors notes of research, might be well served, in part, as being added to the bottom of each defintion we agree upon?

Show Car;
Any type or design of automobile, "irregardless of make, model or year ", that has been in outdoor or indoor public display for viewing?
Meets the shows standards, be it a lower standard or upper concourse standard, for acceptance to be publicly displayed and shown.
It is not restrained from being a Futuristic car, Custom car, One off car, Streamlined car, Aero car, Tear drop car, Concept car, Prototype car, Pro mod or a Hot Rod.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hot Rod,
The earliest known style of personal expression to modify a factory built automobile.
In early known past design and modern design, they include:
Common traits in appearance,
 fenderless or bicycle type fenders, modifications in dropped axles, adopted rear end choices, open and closed frame channels, roadster or coupe origins of begining design, varying engines regarding horsepower, cylinders and make, wheels and tires of many different styles, louvered hoods or no hoods whatsoever and wild to tame interior and paint expression.

An exception to the basic defintion, some of the early Hot Rodders built there own fiberglass bodies according to their own taste, they still carry and retain the original defintion above in basic theme.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Cutom Cars;

During the evolution of automobile design, fat fender and smoother bodies together with closed fendered designs became popular.
Gone were the once prevailing, lets say, Model T type body designs as once used on Hot Rods.
This style of car appears as the standard for manufacturer's in the mid thities to current day, ( 2009 ).

Their bodies and designs, for the most part, kept fenders, hoods etcetera but yet were highly modified or the term, ( Customized ).

Custom cars are again crafted and styled after the builders thoughts and designs.
The terms, chopped and channeled, shaved, frenched, lead sled and others appeared in magazines and books.
Custom cars appear to cover the year spans as mentioned above and are by far "different "in appearance to Hot Rod early car designs.

A modern day design by Chip Foose, the 1937 Studebaker Custom Convertible is a prime example of a modern day Custom, Foose himself labeled it a Custom.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Pro Mod,
Not to be confused with a Custom car, even though traits appear common in some respects.

Pro Mods seem to have appeared in the late 80's and have carried on to modern day, (2009).

Performance themes, such as, wheel tubs for gigantic tires, nitros systems, super high horsepower, current day gauges, racing cages, racing seats all seem to prevail in a Pro Modders mind.

They can be of any year, but generally the 50's thru current day (2009) manufacturer's bodies prevail as the Pro Modders choice.

They appear to follow in the foot steps of an early Custom car, but yet through evolution, are coined and termed, by the builders and writers , as Pro Mods.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Concept and Prototype,
To this writer, should be defined and set as one in the same with explicit defintions, they bleed together in exceedingly common traits.
Ultra, your thoughts on not being able to define each, believe this concept/prototype combination is one?
Thoughts???

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ahhh, Futuristic;

Before setting out to tackle this one, lets remember that auction Houses, Historians and writers have loosely used this term to death, most contradicting each other as with the other topics we are all trying to bring definition to.

The GM 1950's Futuristic Motorcade, the GM Futuristic bus, Chrysler , Ford, Lincoln, Mercury futuristic cars, and on and on>>>>

To me, the Aero's, Tear Drops, Streamliners and the above that have been "stereotyped" all fall into the Bold and Creative thoughts of the Future designs to come.

The Aperta, modern day (2009) Futuristic, brings the old historic designs into light but yet combines concept/protype  powerplants together with the builders future thinking design, this case, more early tear drop than anything else?

Thoughts before narrowing down the field of futuristic design and traits??

John



 

[Otto Puzzell]

 

[RayTheRat]

<snip>

Hot Rod,
The earliest known style of personal expression to modify a factory built automobile.
In early known past design and modern design, they include:
Common traits in appearance,
 fenderless or bicycle type fenders, modifications in dropped axles, adopted rear end choices, open and closed frame channels, roadster or coupe origins of begining design, varying engines regarding horsepower, cylinders and make, wheels and tires of many different styles, louvered hoods or no hoods whatsoever and wild to tame interior and paint expression.

An exception to the basic definition, some of the early Hot Rodders built there own fiberglass bodies according to their own taste, they still carry and retain the original definition above in basic theme.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Cutom Cars;

During the evolution of automobile design, fat fender and smoother bodies together with closed fendered designs became popular.
Gone were the once prevailing, lets say, Model T type body designs as once used on Hot Rods.
This style of car appears as the standard for manufacturer's in the mid thities to current day, ( 2009 ).

Their bodies and designs, for the most part, kept fenders, hoods etcetera but yet were highly modified or the term, ( Customized ).

Custom cars are again crafted and styled after the builders thoughts and designs.
The terms, chopped and channeled, shaved, frenched, lead sled and others appeared in magazines and books.
Custom cars appear to cover the year spans as mentioned above and are by far "different "in appearance to Hot Rod early car designs.

A modern day design by Chip Foose, the 1937 Studebaker Custom Convertible is a prime example of a modern day Custom, Foose himself labeled it a Custom.

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Pro Mod,
Not to be confused with a Custom car, even though traits appear common in some respects.

Pro Mods seem to have appeared in the late 80's and have carried on to modern day, (2009).

Performance themes, such as, wheel tubs for gigantic tires, nitros systems, super high horsepower, current day gauges, racing cages, racing seats all seem to prevail in a Pro Modders mind.

They can be of any year, but generally the 50's thru current day (2009) manufacturer's bodies prevail as the Pro Modders choice.

They appear to follow in the foot steps of an early Custom car, but yet through evolution, are coined and termed, by the builders and writers , as Pro Mods.

</snip>

My nickel's worth on rods vs kustoms...and I always spell it with a "k"...just cuz.  (See one of the attached images.)

Rods are "generally" created from 1936 and older vehicles, with the emphasis on performance.  The characteristics you listed, mc1, are all part of the "package."  1936 is sort of a gray area.  There are 36 Fords that I'd call hot rods, and there are a ton of 'em that were built as "lead sleds" or radical kustoms.  One of George Barris' first cars was a 36 Ford with a Lasalle grill, iirc.  Definitely a kustom. 

Another line in the sand that's drawn by the Southern California Timing Association (they sanction 2 of the major events on the salt flats, including Speed Week...the biggest) is 1934.  Their definition for a "roadster" is a 1928-1934 Ford.  Period.  No Model Ts, no Chevy Roadsters, nothing but that very narrow band of Fords.  I bleeve it's cuz back in 1949, the guys who began what's now called "Land Speed Racing" were a pretty tight and exclusive (if you can use that word to describe hot rodders) group and they figgered that only those bodies were acceptable as a basis for a real rod.  Matter of fact, in the first few years on the salt and dry lakes, coupes (let alone sedans) weren't considered hot rods.  Well, then came along the Pierson brothers with their famous coupe and ran faster than any of the roadsters under the sanction of a competing body (Rusetta Timing Association) and the SCTA guys had to broaden their horizons a bit and create some new classes.  The roadster classes still haven't changed because some records are still held by SCTA board members and until they "depart for greener pastures", the rules will stay the same.  I don't even want to think about competing in that area.

Recently, there's been a fad called "rat rods", "Goth rods, "Suicide rods" and so on.  They started out as traditional hot rods that weren't built from fiberglass bodies, pre-manufactured frames, electronic fuel injection, Mustang II independent front suspension and especially no "billet aluminum" components.  The original idea was to build a hot rod from the stuff you had on hand or could be easily obtained or fabricated.  I call my 1929 Model A pickup a full-fendered, full-height rat rod, because I started building it in the way I would have if I could have afforded to build a rod when I was in my teens (my family was pretty much dirt-poor and all I could afford was magazines that showed the kool stuff.)  Anyway, my Model A is staying with a friend for a while, but it'll keep its rusty patina for quite a while.  In the mean time, the rat rod thing has (again, imnso) gotten totally out of hand...rods adorned with skulls, saw blades, hand grenades...and it gets weird from there.  I don't even know if they qualify as hot rods anymore.

So onto kustoms.  There was a saying back in the 50s and 60s that went, "if it don't go fast, chrome it."  That summarized the split between the hot rodders and the kustom car guys, although in the early to mid-50s, some of the kustom guys ran their cars on the salt and dry lakes.  As time progressed, the kustom guys and the kustomizers began to concentrate more on car shows and "cruising", or driving by the local drive-in real slow (cuz some of the kustoms were so low that they'd scrape on a toothpick in the road) and showing off.  The rodders would be there, too, but generally headed out to do a little street racing rather than slow cruising.

With all of this going on, Detroit threw everybody a curve when they introduced "Pony Cars" (Mustangs, Camaros, Firebirds...Corvettes became serious in 55-57 and sorta fall into this category) and "Muscle Cars" (Pontiac GTOs, Olds 442s, Falcon Sprints....even AMC Matadors could be had with performance options) which really muddied the waters in trying to determine if they were factory hot rods or just "stockers" (not to be confused with stock car racing...totally different animal.)

In an attempt to summarize this, I'll repeat that hot rods are generally 36 and earlier cars built primarily for performance, kustoms are 36 and later cars built to dazzle the eye, show off the builders' skill and win trophies at shows.  Muscle cars (what I've generally built/driven for the last coupla decades) are somewhere in the "undefinable" area.  Some shows have a separate class for Camaro, one for Mustang and so on, just because they're hard to define.

One other thing that kinda muddies the waters is that the term "show car" can be used to describe a hot rod, kustom or muscle car that's only built for displaying at kustom car shows..."trailer queens" is another word one could use to describe them.  That term is sort of in conflict with factory show cars, which are generally (imnsho) also concept cars.

One last thing: Pro Mod, Pro Street and Pro Touring are all sub-genres of what I'd call muscle cars, but there are some that are built from very non-muscle-ish cars, like the V8 Reliant Rover that was here in one of the topics recently.  Big motors, fat tires (slicks in Pro Mod, "cheater slicks rear" and skinnies in front on Pro Street and fat low-profile tires in Pro Touring) and a ton of showy stuff along with go-fast stuff. 

Conclusion:  It ain't easy to make hard and fast definitions for any of these genres.  I guess I can post a link in this forum, so I'll add one to the section of my personal website where I have photos of car shows and "cruise nights" going back to 1999:
http://www.chevyasylum.com/cruisin/Welcome.html 

One thing I'll warn you about...make that 2 things.  First, there are a lotta photos there and second, one thing that's evident is the continuing upgrades in digital cameras.  I now use a Canon 7D, but nothing like that was available in 99...so there are some photos that I REALLY wish I could go back and re-shoot with the equipment I have now.

There's also a section for Land Speed Racing:
http://www.chevyasylum.com/lsr/Welcome.html

I could kick myself a hundred times over because I've lived near the Bonneville Salt Flats for a large part of my life and didn't go there for the racing until 2003.  Oh, how I wish I'd gotten into that when I came back to the states in 1971.  Hell, I might even be considered a candidate to drive the Target 550 streamliner instead of being the webmaster:
http://www.target550.com/index.html  That one otta be real interesting in the next 6 months or so, since it has a real good chance of a test run or two this year after 12 years of construction.  I've been with 'em for about 2.5 years.

Finally, here are a coupla photos of my take on a low-budget, "built as I would have 40+ years ago" hot (or not so hot) rod, and a couple of my muscle cars:

[motorcar1]

Guys,
I think this topic should be joined into PJ's new and great topic on defining designs and eras??

Coach builder, was perhaps the first known for one off, concept, futuristic etc.
Am I wrong in my assumption??

Ultra, yes, the group herein autopuzzles totally eclipse the knowledge herein compared to any other site in the world>>> the crew herein>>> have forgotten more than what others sites think they know with their experts have for in Historical work.

Just a thought from my simple mind and compliments to everybody at autopuzzles !!!!!!
Warmest regards,
John