Topic: Carrozzeria Italiana

[João]

Is this a great book??

Opinions appreciated 

[75america]

This book is in Italian and is exactly the same as:
STORIA DELLA CARROZZERIA ITALIANA (also in Italian)


There also exists an English version of the same book:
CARROZZERIA ITALIANA ADVANCING THE ART AND SCIENCE OF AUTOMOBILE DESIGN


The book is IMO not that great.  But at the end of the book, there is an interesting listing of important people in the history of italian coachbuilding (from Marcello Alessio up to Alfredo Zanellato) with a very short description of their involvement.
And there is also a listing of Italian coachbuilders that not only contains the well known ones, but also others like Alessio, Anelli & Volpiano, ...Zanetti.  each time with a very short description, period of activity,...
Most of these coachbuilder names are not present in the Beaulieu Coachbuilding book, which makes the book interesting to own if you are interested in Italian coachbuilders.
But keep in mind that also this book does not include all all Italian coachbuilders.

The book contains hundreds of small pictures (+/- 6 x 4 cm) of italian pre-war and post-war coachbuild cars. 
You can find most of these post-war car pics also in other books about Italian coachbuilders. 

However I think that it is harder to find other sources that also contain the pre-war pictures from the coachbuilders where not a lot of literature exists of (Stabilimenti Farina, Alessio, Castagna, Sala, Montescani, Garavini, Viotti)

[Allemano]

BTW: recently I stumbled on this: CARROZZIERI DI IERI E DI OGGI 1963
but was too stingy to buy it.., so, it remained unsold. Something I regret a little today..
Any experience?

[75america]

BTW: recently I stumbled on this: CARROZZIERI DI IERI E DI OGGI 1963
but was too stingy to buy it.., so, it remained unsold. Something I regret a little today..
Any experience?

No, but I am interested in getting a copy of it!
I have the impression that it might be more comprehensive than the 'Carrozzeria italiana cultura e progetto' book.

[Allemano]

Maybe you contact the seller and he put it in again!

[João]

This book is in Italian and is exactly the same as:
STORIA DELLA CARROZZERIA ITALIANA (also in Italian)


There also exists an English version of the same book:
CARROZZERIA ITALIANA ADVANCING THE ART AND SCIENCE OF AUTOMOBILE DESIGN


The book is IMO not that great.  But at the end of the book, there is an interesting listing of important people in the history of italian coachbuilding (from Marcello Alessio up to Alfredo Zanellato) with a very short description of their involvement.
And there is also a listing of Italian coachbuilders that not only contains the well known ones, but also others like Alessio, Anelli & Volpiano, ...Zanetti.  each time with a very short description, period of activity,...
Most of these coachbuilder names are not present in the Beaulieu Coachbuilding book, which makes the book interesting to own if you are interested in Italian coachbuilders.
But keep in mind that also this book does not include all all Italian coachbuilders.

The book contains hundreds of small pictures (+/- 6 x 4 cm) of italian pre-war and post-war coachbuild cars. 
You can find most of these post-war car pics also in other books about Italian coachbuilders. 

However I think that it is harder to find other sources that also contain the pre-war pictures from the coachbuilders where not a lot of literature exists of (Stabilimenti Farina, Alessio, Castagna, Sala, Montescani, Garavini, Viotti)

Thank you so much!!!!

[AlvisParkWard]

Allemano, 75America,

"Carrozzieri di ieri e di oggi" is a useful, but expensive supplement to "Carrozzeria italiana".

The first 57 pages are a brief history of road transport, describing horse drawn carriages etc. The second section, of 36 pages, gives brief histories of 67 Italian coachbuilders no longer in business by the date of publication. The third section, of 90 pages, covers the then current Italian coachbuilders. The contents include both commercial and passenger car coachwork, a balance which is also reflected in the relatively small number of b/w photos included. The text, which gives the book its main value, is, of course, only in Italian.

I'd suggest that the book is useful for those specialising in the history of Italian coachbuilding and probably contains information (particularly on defunct companies) which is not readily accessible in other titles, but that it is not the generalist.

[Allemano]

Thanks for the info AlvisParkWard and and a warm welcome to Autopuzzles!

One of us already got the book for a reasonable price and as you mentioned it seems to be a good, but not overwhelming source.

[75america]

I confirm what Allemano wrote 

[dapper]

Can anyone confirm for me as to why, apart from Fiat setting up there, Turin came to be the centre of Italian coachbuilding? I'm presuming it is because there was a history going back in actual coach building - the non-motorised kind.

Oh and hello by the way - new to the forum today.

[als15]

Welcome!

IMO, Turin leading position is mainly related to Fiat and other major brands of the pioneering era.
The presence of coachbuilder is where cars are built. Milan had also great carmakers ang great coachbuilders.
So did Modena and - generally - the Emilia region. But where coachbuilding factories have been set up lacking of locally made cars, they soon disappeared. I know obscure brands in Florence or even in Naples, but all them short lived, unable to compete with Turin- and Milan-based companies.

[75america]

I have also a thing that I would like to see explained:

In for example 1956, a Fiat 600 Berlina cost between 595,000 and 620,850 Lire while a Nuova 1100/103 E-A cost between 920,000 and 961,969 Lire.

Coachbuilders like Canta and Mantelli made ‘imitation’ Fiat 1100/103 Berlina’s based on Fiat 600 telaio.

It is hard to believe that these coachbuilders were able to make these conversions at a competitive price compared to the standard Fiat 1100.   I should think these would even be more expensive than a standard Fiat 1100.  So who bought these cars?

In cases where the coachbuilders made a very distinctive carbody, I completely understand that these can attract customers.
But in these ‘imitation’ cases it’s just like you want a Ferrari Testarossa, but in the end, you drive a Pontiac Fiero kitcar with that difference that in case of the kitcar, you actually save a lot of money.

[Iluvatar]

It is hard to believe that these coachbuilders were able to make these conversions at a competitive price compared to the standard Fiat 1100.   I should think these would even be more expensive than a standard Fiat 1100.

I'm not really sure about it...

[als15]

And in fact their cost was in between the base and the original. A canta 600 costed about 800.000 lire and at that time taxes (based on displacement) were also very high, so an ugly 4-door 600 had its -relative- attractiveness.

Hard to believe, but the manpower cost at that time was very low and also there was plenty of skilled body-makers, able to quickly do almost everything.

This also explains why the wide part of coachbuilders disappeared or were forced to change their activity between 1968 and 1972: with the first mass protest by trade-unions in the so-called 1969 "hot autumn" the mechanic industry workers started to get more money and more rights. Fiat struggled, fighted (had even some managers killed) but survived, while Lancia and several minor companies saw costs rising too much and went in bankrupcy. After that, coachbuilding was no longer a profitable activity, at least on mass-production scale.

[Iluvatar]

And in fact their cost was in between the base and the original. A canta 600 costed about 800.000 lire and at that time taxes (based on displacement) were also very high, so an ugly 4-door 600 had its -relative- attractiveness.

Hard to believe, but the manpower cost at that time was very low and also there was plenty of skilled body-makers, able to quickly do almost everything.

This also explains why the wide part of coachbuilders disappeared or were forced to change their activity between 1968 and 1972: with the first mass protest by trade-unions in the so-called 1969 "hot autumn" the mechanic industry workers started to get more money and more rights. Fiat struggled, fighted (had even some managers killed) but survived, while Lancia and several minor companies saw costs rising too much and went in bankrupcy. After that, coachbuilding was no longer a profitable activity, at least on mass-production scale.

Thanks for the explanation!!

[dapper]

OK, thanks for your reply.

So could a reasonable explanation as to why there are/were a plethora of design and technical schools in Turin is because G.Agnelli found Count Emanuele Bricherasio di Cacherano and the other investors in the city and it just so happened to be where Giovanni Battista Ceirano & co had set up shop.

Sorry, I'm utilising Wikipedia to get a grip on this at the moment and all other writings on the subject on the net are just as vague.

Take this for example.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceirano_GB_%26_C

Did the  FIAT 3 ½ come about as a direct result of the purchase of the Welleyes from Ceirano or not? Most frustrating.

[als15]

This topic is definitely wide and would deserve a whole book (and actually, I'm writing it  ).
However, basically yes. But the Turin context at the end of XIX Century was something more complicated. Let's say that it was a former Capital trying to find a new identity after loosing the political acitivity. The good location close to France helped in getting the right contacts and the right opportunities to establish a mechanic industry. Fiat is only one, but the period companies have been dozens.

About Ceirano and his Welleyes, yes. Fiat was made by financial investors (Agnelli, Racca, Damevino, Ceriana-Mayneri, Scarfiotti and others) and by wealth cars enthusiasts (Biscaretti, Bricherasio, Lanza). None of them had, however, technical skills, so the only chance was to buy a great project and develop it. They chosen Ceirano's Welleyes, hired Ceriano himself as Sales Director and his engineer Aristide Faccioli as Technical Director. The Welleyes was strenghtened and turned into the 3 ½ Hp.

And about Cierano family's history: we are still trying to understand it today, so don't trust Wikipedia. They founded at least 6 companies and all the brothers, sons, cousins and nephews were named Battista, Giovanni or Giovanni-Battista. Very frustrating trying to understand who did what...

[dapper]

als15

Your help has been immeasurable. Thank you for imparting your knowledge on the matter and good luck with your research on the subject. I look forward to hearing how the project progresses.

I'm particularly interested to know how many of the horse driven carriage makers of Turin survived it into the 20th century as auto coachbuilders and what output they produced of note today as in the case of Mulliner, Barker and Hooper's of the UK and their Daimler's, Rolls and Bentley's.

[als15]

You are too nice with me... I'm just an enthusiast always happy to discuss about car history...

About your question, the answer is easy: none! No horse-drawn carriage maker actually ever become a car-maker.

All the few pioneering-era brands surviving today (Fiat, Lancia, Alfa-Romeo) have born as financial ventures. Lancia less then the others, but is somehow a spin-off of Fiat (Vincenzo Lancia was a Fiat official racing driver).

The only exception could be Bertone, which actually started as farm-carriage manufcatutrer and soon moved to automotive. But it's an ecxeption because it's not so old (compared with the period competitors) and actually making only agricultural vehicles in the countryside.

Of course, several luxury horse-drawn carriage manufacturers also widened their activity to cars in the late 1890s or eraly 1900s, but soon or later they closed. Some names among the major could be Locati & Torretta and M. Alessio in Turin or the much more famous Castagna and C. Sala in Milan. Actually, in Milan there was plenty of those factories, more than in Turin. I think it's because of the local mindset, with a more European lifestyle coming from having been part of the Austo-Ungarian Empire, but discussing about that would bring us too back in the past and too far from cars...