Topic: Solved - NEH 4048: Dutch Darrin proposal for updated Argentinian Kaiser Carabela - 1960

[Carnut]

What's this, by whom, from when - for 1 point?:

Remember - solving puzzles using 'Google Search by Image' is BANNED on AutoPuzzles!

[Carnut]

Experts?

[fyreline]

OK, this is way out there but it was a "first impression": Any Kaiser connection?

[Carnut]

OK, this is way out there but it was a "first impression": Any Kaiser connection?

Yes!

[fyreline]

Knew I had seen it somewhere. After digging out Richard Langworth's excellent 1975 Kaiser-Frazer history The Last Onslaught on Detroit, there it was on page 230. This appears to be a "Dutch" Darrin facelift proposal for a post-1965 update of the Argentinian version of the Kaiser Manhattan, called the Carabela.

[Carnut]

Knew I had seen it somewhere. After digging out Richard Langworth's excellent 1975 Kaiser-Frazer history The Last Onslaught on Detroit, there it was on page 230. This appears to be a "Dutch" Darrin facelift proposal for a post-1965 update of the Argentinian version of the Kaiser Manhattan, called the Carabela.

Yes, that's exactly what it is.
I got it from a different book though, where it describes the picture as "Snapped in the Kaiser-Willys styling department at Toledo circa 1960", so it was probably meant to enter production a bit earlier than 1965, but since it never did anyway we won't argue!
Well done.

[fyreline]

Could be - the Carabela stayed in production in Argentina through 1962, by which time it looked pretty dated indeed. It would have made sense for them to freshen it up sooner than 1965 - but that's what Langworth's book says. Who knows for sure?

[ropat53]

Can't be 1965, because by that time two different models of Rambler had been built in Argentina. In 1962 the dated Carabela was replaced by what was in USA the 1961 Rambler Classic and in 1964 the next version appeared, it was the 1963 USA Rambler Classic and this car was the base of the Torino.

So 1960 seems correct, probably revamping the Carabela was considered and eventually discarded most likely because of the cost of the new dies considering the low production rate, only 3000 car a year and instead the Rambler was built. Ramblers in Argentina were always one model behind the USA cars, so most likely the old dies were simply shipped down here after production was over in USA.

[fyreline]

Can't be 1965, because by that time two different models of Rambler had been built in Argentina. In 1962 the dated Carabela was replaced by what was in USA the 1961 Rambler Classic and in 1964 the next version appeared, it was the 1963 USA Rambler Classic and this car was the base of the Torino.

So 1960 seems correct, probably revamping the Carabela was considered and eventually discarded most likely because of the cost of the new dies considering the low production rate, only 3000 car a year and instead the Rambler was built. Ramblers in Argentina were always one model behind the USA cars, so most likely the old dies were simply shipped down here after production was over in USA.

Yes, I'm aware of all that . . . but the statement that it "can't be 1965" is just opinion. It could have been drawn in 1955, it could still be labeled as a design intended for 1965 (or even later). I do agree that it would have made more sense to redesign the aging Kaiser Manhattan design much earlier . . . but in any event, they didn't. Not in 1960, or ever as it turned out. I also agree that such an extensive refresh as the drawing shows would in all likelihood not be cost-effective. The IKA Torino was actually a very nice-looking car . . . arguably better looking than many of its American predecessors.

[Bill Murray]

I cannot claim any expertise here, only that I have an interest in US cars made in South America, but I found earlier on this same photo on several websites that identify the car as a Dutch Darrin design done in 1960.

A side view as opposed to the frontal view of the puzzle photo.

Bill

[fyreline]

I will bow to the preponderance of evidence that the quiz car is more likely a 1960 Darrin re-design proposal for the Kaiser Carabela. For all the reasons stated, it just makes more sense. However, I still maintain that any concept drawing - even one done in 1960 -  can be labeled as "proposed 2036 design", or any date of the artist's choosing. What is more relevant is whether or not the drawing itself is dated. It may, for example, be dated "March 1960" but be labeled as "proposed post-1965 redesign". Whatever actually happened to the real car after the date that the drawing was done is irrelevant. It's a date on a drawing, folks - nothing more. This may seem like splitting hairs, but words matter. Automotive history is a passion for many of us, and accuracy is important. My answer to the quiz is based on the photo caption in Richard Langworth's authoritative Kaiser-Frazer history. He had to come up with his "post-1965 proposal" caption from somewhere . . . I doubt that he just guessed. In any case, more information is always better than less (or incorrect) information, and no serious student of automotive history should preclude himself from being wrong. And I may be. Or not.

OK, at this point, does anyone still care?  No, I thought not.  Sorry.

[Carnut]

Yes!
For what it's worth I think this car would have looked hopelessly out of date had it appeared on sale in 1965!  It would have been fine in 1961/2 but things had definitely moved on by 1965..

[fyreline]

I absolutely agree . . . which tends to make me think that it WAS drawn (and apparently modeled) in 1960, when they didn't know what 1965 styling trends would be.  I wouldn't even think it would have been successful as a 1960 new car - but they sold the Carabela, 1951-based body and all, through 1962. Can you imagine a brand new '62 Carabela next to, say, a new '62 Buick? Already hopelessly out of date. Oh, well. I have always thought it was neat that American Kaiser collectors had a source, right up through 1962 and beyond, for "new" parts from Argentina - but perhaps availability of those parts wasn't all that easy?