Topic: Solved NIC#173 - Saxon-BMC based on 1952 Mackson F3

[nicanary]

What is this car? Please tell me the year and the formula, and what the car is based on.

[nicanary]

Experts?

[frederick59]

Racer 500 Mackson?

[nicanary]

Racer 500 Mackson?

You have answered part of the puzzle. But which part? I will LOCK it for you to find out exactly what this car is.

[frederick59]

1952 500 racer based on a Cooper?

[nicanary]

1952 500 racer based on a Cooper?

Not that. This car is photographed several years after it was built.

[frederick59]

so 1952 would be the year when the car was built?

[nicanary]

so 1952 would be the year when the car was built?

Correct. The chassis dates from 1952. But the image was taken later, and the car had a whole new identity.

[frederick59]

photo taken in 1959?

[nicanary]

photo taken in 1959?

Nearly there....

[frederick59]

is the event in Sweden?

[nicanary]

is the event in Sweden?

That's a very good question, but I don't know the answer. I have very little information about this car, but there could be a Swedish connection with the owner/driver. I think you may have got somewhere towards solving this puzzle.

[frederick59]

is this car renamed as Saxon?

[nicanary]

is this car renamed as Saxon?

Yes! Still locked for you - Can you tell me the year and the engine fitted in the photo?

[frederick59]

1962 and BMC engine?

[nicanary]

1962 and BMC engine?

No to both. A bit earlier and the engine is not what you would expect.

I will leave it locked for you until 11.00 am GMT Saturday.

[frederick59]

DKW and 1960

[nicanary]

DKW and 1960

Correct! One more point for you.

I thought you had found the website with the details earlier, because your questions were getting close to the answer, but anyway you got there in the end. The only website which provides details contains a discussion between forum members which has a lot of misinformation and inaccuracy. I have researched as much as I can and it seems this was one of the Mackson team cars for 500cc F3 racing, and was sold in 1955 to Cyril Scott-MacArthur. He raced it in F3 and then converted it to a Formula Junior car around 1958/59. He installed a DKW 2-stroke engine which was a popular choice in the early days of the formula, but I have no idea why he renamed it the Saxon.

It seems that the owner/driver lived somewhere in Northern Europe, because the car was entered in events in Germany, Denmark and Sweden. The cause for the confusion on the website where I found the image is because there was another FJ car called a Saxon, a completely different car which was powered by a BMC engine.

[serra]

DKW and 1960

Correct! One more point for you.

I thought you had found the website with the details earlier, because your questions were getting close to the answer, but anyway you got there in the end. The only website which provides details contains a discussion between forum members which has a lot of misinformation and inaccuracy. I have researched as much as I can and it seems this was one of the Mackson team cars for 500cc F3 racing, and was sold in 1955 to Cyril Scott-MacArthur. He raced it in F3 and then converted it to a Formula Junior car around 1958/59. He installed a DKW 2-stroke engine which was a popular choice in the early days of the formula, but I have no idea why he renamed it the Saxon.

It seems that the owner/driver lived somewhere in Northern Europe, because the car was entered in events in Germany, Denmark and Sweden. The cause for the confusion on the website where I found the image is because there was another FJ car called a Saxon, a completely different car which was powered by a BMC engine.

It is clear that there is a bit contoversy and misinformation about this car, I post other photo that looks the puzzle  car with the info for the other saxon  with BMC engine.

[nicanary]

Serra, you know you are correct in having doubts about my answer. I used information on the internet which was a bit confused, and after I posted the puzzle to the Solved section, I realised that the car in the puzzle had 2 SU carburettors, which indicated a BMC engine and not the DKW claimed on the internet. There is not a lot of information about this car, but most sites seem to think there were 2 different marques named Saxon, and that the car with the BMC engine was a later design made specifically for Formula Junior.

However, this photo clearly shows a BMC engine, or at least an engine which used SU carbs. To make matters more complicated, I have found a photo of the car at the 1960 Eifelrennen where it IS fitted with a DKW engine! I will have to check into this, and return with a definitive answer. Here's my latest find.

[nicanary]

I could spend all day on this one, but I'll keep it short. Nobody knows!

Two Mackson 500cc F3 cars were sold by the works in 1955, and one was bought by Cyril Scott-MacArthur and he raced this car for 3 years until 1958. He appears to have still been based in the UK. In 1958 he rebuilt the car, presumably incorporating his own ideas , and renamed it the Saxon, still in F3 guise.  F3 racing was now on its last legs, and Formula Junior came into existence in 1958, really taking off in 1959. This is where the trail gets confused.

By now the owner was based in Germany, serving in the British Army. He converted the old Mackson to FJ specification - according to David Hodges' book of A-Z Formula cars, he installed the BMC engine, but I have found race entries for 1959 with a DKW motor fitted. Hodges claims the DKW car is a different one, built in 1960. I can find race entries right through 1959 to 1961 with the owner racing in Germany with a DKW engine, but then there is a  mysterious entry in the 1962 Kanonloppet of a Saxon-BMC driven by a different owner, and this is confusing everyone. To make matters worse, one website mentions Duncan Rabagliati (acknowledged as an expert on obscure racing marques) who claimed that the Saxon was first fitted with a BMC engine and then later on the same year, had the DKW installed.

Quite honestly, I don't think we'll ever know. The puzzle photo has a caption underneath which is so badly out of focus that it can't be read. There's no doubt in my mind that the photo shows a BMC engine, but the year of the photo is unknown. My claim of 1960 is down to the Hodges book.

So - apologies to any AP member who tried to solve the puzzle, and to frederick59 for misleading him when he asked questions. He deserves his point because he used information on the web, even if this may have not been correct. I am awarding an extra point to serra for correcting my mistake, and wish to also apologise to all members of AP for not doing my homework first.

A warning - do not believe what it says on internet sites!

[serra]

Tranks for the point nicanary as you have said maybe we will never know the true story of this car I think the most likely it is that says Duncan Rabagliati was the truth the same car with diferent engines but when was the engine changed? that is the mysterious mater for the moment -

[nicanary]

The new driver at the Kanonloppet was a Raymond Menday (spelled Henday on race entry) who had a Swedish wife. The records say he was French, but his son confirms on the web that he was British. I wonder if he saw the Saxon at a meeting there, and arranged to buy it off the owner/builder, and later fitted it with the BMC engine? There are no records that I can find where the builder raced the car with a BMC engine.

[Carnut]

Golden rule: the Internet is a veritable goldmine of misinformation...!

[frederick59]

Yes i found the first part on a 500 racer sites on internet,as for the engine i was so sure that it was a motorbike engine,but there again i was wrong
Anyway i must admit that it was a difficult one to solve