Topic: Solved: PN #593 -- Photos from the collection of the Vojnich family, Hungary

[pnegyesi]

Hi
I have some photos, which I can't identify. I believe these cars belonged to the same family. There's a closed sedan, and two different two-seater roadsters. The photos were taken around 1929-1930, probably somewhere in Kaposvar, Hungary

Can you please help identifying these? I would love to give you points

If you need these in very high-res, pls send me a PM

Thanks

[Tom_I]

The second roadster, the one with multiple pictures, looks very Chrysler-like.

Below is a 1929 Chrysler 65 which seems to match in radiator shape and badging, bumper, headlamp lens pattern, and sidelights further back along the bonnet. The only thing worrying me is that the puzzle car has 25 louvres on the side of the bonnet, but Chrysler 65s only have 23 (if I've counted correctly). I don't know how significant that is. There are very similar-looking cars from DeSoto and Plymouth, but the Chrysler looks closest to me.

But then I don't claim any expertise on American cars, so maybe somebody else can shed more light.

[Bill Murray]

Hi Pal & Tom:

Tom, I believe you are spot on regarding the last roadster photos with the exception that I think it is a model 75, not 65.
The model 75 has the very distinctive curvature on the corners of the hood side louvers whereas the 65 is much straighter.

I would dare say the owners were rather well off, this was an expensive car as is the first one which I still cannot identify.
I must also say they really liked their lights, the cars are covered with them!

Bill

[pnegyesi]

Thanks, so one of the roadsters is a Chrysler -either MOdel 65 or 75

Can the first car, the closed one, be a Graham-Paige?

[Tom_I]

I think the closed sedan is also a Chrysler. In fact it looks identical to the one below, which is a Chrysler Model 72 from 1928.

Body style is the same, also the radiator, headlamps mounted on vertical supports, bumper, trim strips along the body side, small visor over the windscreen, and the hood irons at the back, which I think are fake. It doesn't look to me as if the rear part of the roof actually opens, and they are just trim items.

[pnegyesi]

wow, thanks so much.

[Bill Murray]

Hi again Pal & Tom:

I am proud of you, Tom.  Most Brits would not have a clue about those two Chryslers and you nailed them both.
I agree with you on the sedan as well and the real telling ID characteristic is the side mouldings beneath the windows, a stylimg feature of the Model 72 Chrysler of that year.

Regarding the last mystery car, you may laugh or disagree, but...........

Firstly, I believe the photo is reversed.  All of the other cars are LHd.

Secondly, I believe the car is a 1928 Model A Ford. 

Please see the two photos below.  On the roadster, you can see the curve of the door, the placement of the door hinge and the hubcaps quite clearly.  On the other photo, you can see the bumper, the grille with it's characteristic dip in the upper center and also the engine hood louvers.  The grille mascot, as on the other cars, is probably an aftermarket item which you could often see both here and in Europe.

Let me know what you think.

Bill

[Tom_I]

That looks convincing to me, Bill. I'm not sure about the reversal of the photo. Most pictures of Ford Model As show the horn mounted under the left-hand headlamp, as in the puzzle photo. It does seem odd though that two of the cars are LHD, but the other is RHD.

When I started Autopuzzling, I became acutely aware of my lack of knowledge of American cars, and have tried to become better acquainted with the subject since then. It's still a bit outside my comfort zone, though.

Maybe you can help, Bill, as I'm still not quite sure about the Chrysler Models 65 and 75. Most of the 75s I have seen have a different style of radiator to the puzzle roadster, but not all - some do look like it. Were the two styles used on the 75, or are some photos just misidentified?

And I know I get obsessed with minor details, but where I have found sharp enough photos of Model 75s, they all seem to have only 20 louvres on the bonnet/hood sides, which again doesn't match the puzzle picture.

Maybe it's not such a good diagnostic feature though, as I have now found a picture of what claims to be a Model 65 which, unlike the others I have seen, does match the puzzle photos, in having 25 louvres set in a pressed-out panel with the more curved edges and corners. This one has a different design of bumper, though.

Honestly, spending my weekend counting bonnet louvres? I really should get out more!   

[pnegyesi]

Thanks for your insights

If what Bill said is true, then this is probably the same car, right?

[João]

Chrysler...Ford Model A Roadster..more Chryslers and the last picture it´s a Ford Model A Phaeton..(with someone trying to die!) 

[pnegyesi]

Chrysler...Ford Model A Roadster..more Chryslers and the last picture it´s a Ford Model A Phaeton..(with someone trying to die!) 

No, he's in a race, he doesn't try to die

Thanks for all your help, I will award some points and close this topic. Your assistance is highly appreciated

[Bill Murray]

A couple more points, Pal, if I may.

Firstly, my apologies to Tom and Brits in general for my off handed remark about Brits and Chryslers of this type.

A better way to have put it is that I imagine it is as hard for a Brit to ID an older Chrysler like these as it is for an American to ID a Humber.  Chrysler was at the top of the Chrysler lineup at the time, Plymouth, Dodge, DeSoto and Chrysler.  Most folks can ID the high volume brands but have difficulty with the ordinary, non coachbuilt top of the line makes.

In the same context, regarding the Rootes Group family of cars, I and most Americans can ID Hillmans and Sunbeams but have a devil of a time with Humbers and Talbots.  I was complementing Tom and not disparaging him or the rest of the Brits.

Regarding the Model A, I had completely forgotten that Hungary drove on the left until 1941 and therefore it is entirely possible that the photo is not reversed.

Regarding some of your detail questions, Tom, US cars exported to or assembled or manufactured overseas often had lots of detail differences.  In many cases, they mixed common parts from different years and models as long as they would fit.  In other cases, they manufactured/assembled vehicles that were completely different from the US versions.  Ford of Germany for example would skip 2-3 years of the American styling and continue to produce a sort of mongrel version of an older design.
Australia produced "slopers" and "utes" on American chassis that were unique to that country.  And so it was with a dizzying array of differences possible and you did a great job to sort out the Chryslers.

Nice set of photos, Pal, and if you ever get any background information on the family etc. it would be nice to see.

Bill

[Tom_I]

No apology needed in any way, Bill, certainly not to me. Personally I took your comment as a compliment, and otherwise, pretty much as a simple statement of fact! 

And I take your point about export models. Virtually all the pictures of these cars available online will be US market examples.

[Bill Murray]

"A simple statement of fact".  I love Pommy humour

Bill

[Tom_I]

Do you know anything about this Vojnich family, Pal? As Bill said earlier, they must have been quite well off, and they clearly liked their American cars. Were American cars popular among wealthy Hungarians at this sort of time, or was their choice unusual?

[pnegyesi]

The photos show Kálmán Littke plus his family and friends, who was a foster father of Pál Vojnich. Kálmán Littke was a champagne manufacturer and the vice-president of the Somogymegyei Automobil Club (Automobile Association of Somogy county). He liked American cars - in the 1930s he owned a Reo. I believe the open-top Chrysler was his.

Due to favorable trading agreements, American cars enjoyed some popularity in Hungary from the mid-1920s. At one time there were dozens of American brands represented, even small and less well-known brands. Fun fact: Peerless had a short-living owners' club in Hungary. There were many Hungarian emigrates working at Peerless in Cleveland and they had relatives in Hungary. So Peerless had a distributor who got very good prices.

And yes, Hungarians loved American cars.

[Tom_I]

Interesting. Thanks!

[Bill Murray]

Hi Pal and Tom:

Thanks Tom for following up on the family question and thanks Pal for the information.

Prior to these posts, below is the only decent link I could find to that name, which indicates that at least in the early 1800's, if this is the same family, they would have been of "The Landed Gentry".

I realize this gets us off the subject now and then, but sometimes the story behind the cars is as interesting as the cars themselves.

Bill

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/HUNGARY/2010-06/1276639320