Author Topic: Solved - NEH 2333: SIATA 1400 - 1952  (Read 919 times)

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Offline Carnut

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Solved - NEH 2333: SIATA 1400 - 1952
« on: January 03, 2013, 07:58:27 AM »
Identify this car and from when it dates correctly for 1 point:

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Offline Carnut

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Re: NEH 2333
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2013, 05:16:17 AM »
Easy Expert point!
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Offline thorax

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Re: NEH 2333
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2013, 05:25:44 AM »
Cisitalia?
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Offline Carnut

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Re: NEH 2333
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2013, 05:35:26 AM »
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Offline thorax

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Re: NEH 2333
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2013, 06:06:11 AM »
I've just seen this car.......
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Offline frederick59

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Re: NEH 2333
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2013, 07:50:38 AM »
From the US?

Offline D-type

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Re: NEH 2333
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2013, 08:33:19 AM »
It looks as if it might be a Ferrari from about 1952
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Offline thorax

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Re: NEH 2333
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2013, 08:57:21 AM »
I've find in my archives: Siata 1400 coupè (1958) derived from Fiat 1400
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Offline kwgibbs

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Re: NEH 2333
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2013, 09:00:37 AM »
Arista,just a wild guess?

Offline nicanary

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Re: NEH 2333
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2013, 09:47:14 AM »
One of the answers is right - Siata 1400, but I reckon the year is 1952.
I must be right - that's what it says on Wikipedia

Offline thorax

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Re: NEH 2333
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2013, 10:46:42 AM »
I've read that this car was derived from Fiat 1400 B (1956).
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Offline Carnut

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Re: NEH 2333
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2013, 11:37:31 AM »
Lots of answers!
It doesn't originate from the US, it's not a Ferrari nor is it an Arista!
It is a Siata 1400 as Thorax says, but it's not from 1958 (which is when it first arrived in the US) or 1956!
1952 as nicanary says is much nearer the mark, but it's not quite as simple as that.

I've given Thorax 1 point for identifying the car correctly, but since we still haven't fully established its history I will give another point to the puzzler who can identify when and where this car was first registered and exactly what it is believed to have been based on (and when that dated from).

There is a whole story out there about this car so there's a bit more digging still to be done!
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Offline targhediferro

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Re: NEH 2333
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2013, 12:14:05 PM »
I think this car to be the one realized from Gioachino Colombo, Gilco, for Ovidio Capelli in 1953.
It's based on a Fiat 1400 from 1950,with body and head from Siata, and first registered on Italy, Ancona, AN20442.
After the 1954 Mille Miglia was stopped and then sold to an American buyer.

Offline Carnut

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Re: NEH 2333
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2013, 04:59:35 AM »
I think this car to be the one realized from Gioachino Colombo, Gilco, for Ovidio Capelli in 1953.
It's based on a Fiat 1400 from 1950,with body and head from Siata, and first registered on Italy, Ancona, AN20442.
After the 1954 Mille Miglia was stopped and then sold to an American buyer.

Your reply has many similarities to the story as I have it, but it's different enough to make me think you haven't got the right car.
The timings and basis are roughly right, but not identical; don't recognise the name Ovidio Capelli in connection with this car; it did indeed compete in the 1954 (and 1955) Mille Miglia races but didn't finish either of them.

I'll lock it for you to have another look for the correct story and right car!
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Offline targhediferro

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Re: NEH 2333
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2013, 05:30:12 AM »
These are all the news I got from "Italian Car Registry" of J.de Boer:
The car, based on Fiat 1400 first serie (omologation MO139154M from 2.27.51), chassis #021341, was first delivered to Ovidio Capelli (Fiat Dealer in Milan, and not Ancona as I told before) in 3.31.1954;  in May 1954 the car has been sold to Roberto Montali (Ancona) and took the plate AN-20442.   Montali raced in MM '54 and '55 never ending the races.
The car was then sold to Al Maggiacomo, New York, were it had the plate NY-PK6709.
In 1980 was found in a junkyard and in 1985 was in Dave De Brul collection, waiting for restoration.
Now the car has been completely restored with a white and turquoise I find less elegant than the metallic blue it had in the quiz picture.

Offline Carnut

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Re: NEH 2333
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2013, 05:50:24 AM »
That's better!
I didn't recognise the name of the Fiat dealer in Milan but I think you have the main details correct now!
The colour was described as "Mediterranean Turquoise" and it had a red leather interior; as you say far better looking.

Below is the full story as I have it, which some of you might be interested to read.  I believe it to be all correct:

QUOTE
Al Maggiacomo, a serviceman stationed in Germany, brought my car to the U.S. in 1958. He loved Italian cars and while visiting Milano he visited a dealer who dealt in racing cars. Most were Alfas and too expensive, so he bought the Siata for $2500. It was Siata-badged and had a Fiat 1400-based engine, painted in a “Mediterranean Turquoise” with a red interior. He believed it had no racing history and may have been a show car. After driving it for some time he had his brother install a Triumph TR 3 engine in it. The brother who installed the engine was “Jocco” Maggiacomo. Jocco had a race shop in Poughkeepsie and was a character worthy of a book. Aside from having a long career in midgets and stock cars, a few of the other things he did were racing his Chevy-powered Ferrari at Lime Rock and a Ford Falcon at Sebring. At Sebring in 1964, Maggiacomo saved the life of Consalvo Sanesi, famed Alfa test driver, by pulling him out of his burning Alfa GTZ. He also built a Fiat-powered Formula Jr. with the plans to develop a Formula 1 car. Jocco was an interesting guy.
 
As found by Dave Debrul in a New Paltz N,Y. junkyard in the early 1980s--one of those evocative photos of the era, depicting that great age of barn finds. Photo Dave Dubrul.
After passing through a few other hands, the Siata wound up in a New Paltz, N.Y. junkyard, and eventually arrived in Vermont in the possession of Dave DuBrul, who also owned Bandinis and an OSCA. I bought it from Dave, who came to be a good friend and gave me most of the information on the car to this point. Subsequently I also talked to Al Maggiacomo and another later owner. Dave had at first thought it was a Ferrari and then a Fiat or Siata 8V. Then he concluded that it was a Siata 1400/1500. To that end he had acquired two Fiat-Siata engines, which I bought with the car. Siata had close associations with Fiat and they obtained engines on which they stamped their own serial numbers. They modified these to varying degrees before they left the factory. One engine was slightly modified and the other was race modified.

John de Boer, compiler of The Italian Car Registry has been extraordinarily helpful and patient researching the car’s early history in Italy. He was able to trace the registration of the car from 3/31/54 (although a Certificato d’origine for the car dates to 2/27/51) to Ovidio Capelli, a Fiat agent in Milano with close connections to the factory. Capelli was another character worthy of a book. His racing career spanned the 1930s into the early 60s. The list of cars he owned, raced and/or commissioned goes on and on. To mention a few he commissioned and raced: the first Zagato-bodied Fiat 8V and Zagato Fiat 500. Also he had Touring build a series of lightweight Abarth modified Fiat 1400s.
 
Photos below were taken last summer by Voorhees. It is still unpainted, but has come a long way from the junkyard in New York.
By May of 1954 Roberto Montali of Ancona owned the car. Montali had some previous Mille Miglia experience and he entered this car in the 1954 Mille Miglia and again in the 1955 Mille Miglia, neither time finishing. He sold the car and after passing through at least one other owner it wound up at that dealer in Milano where Al Maggiacomo bought it.
It has been fun putting the story together although there are a few gaps that I would like to fill. For example how did the car come to be and what was Ovidio Capelli’s role? A document on the car refers to Gilberto Colombo of Gilco, the well-known frame fabricator. Did he just supply the frame? Even though the car was listed in the Mille Miglia as a Siata and appears to have a Siata badge there is no actual documentation of it being manufactured by Siata.

Siata built a variety of Fiat 1400 based cars referred to as Dainas. They used Fiat 1400 mechanicals and had a box section frame. Engines were numbered with an SL prefix which matched the chassis number. My car also uses Fiat 1400 mechanicals but it has a tubular frame utilizing round, square and oval tubing. At the front there is a Fiat cross member with suspension attached. At the back a Fiat rear-end is used but the suspension for some reason is changed from quarter elliptic plus coil springs to semi-elliptic springs only. The body is constructed entirely of aluminum. A number of people have said that the body must be Michelotti/Vignale but others have pointed to construction details that are not typical of Vignale. The dimensions are roughly 50 in. high, 64 in. wide and 153 in. long. The wheelbase is 95 ½ in. The wheels are steel centers with alloy rims. Interestingly, the frame construction and filled-in patches indicate that as originally designed the grill would have extended lower down and the side lights were between the grill and the headlights. I assume these changes were made to accommodate a front bumper. I don’t know if it ever was completed as originally designed but I moved the lights to where the holes used to be because I thought they looked better and I don’t intend to find bumpers for it. I am using one of Siata engines in the car. Where practical I am using parts from the race-prepared engine including the 1500 crankshaft. Rebuilding the engine was really reinventing the wheel. For example, rod and main bearings came from Austin Healy, Ford Tempo, Volvo, and Citroen plus additional machine work. I only had a parts catalog and a gasket set. Engine work credit must go to Dale at Motion Machine. I can't thank my friend Jack Brown enough for all his help with the car. Although really an old hot rodder at heart his patience wisdom and depth of knowledge of all things mechanical continues to amaze me.
UNQUOTE
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Offline Carnut

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Re: Solved - NEH 2333: SIATA 1400 - 1952
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2013, 06:10:10 AM »
Here are the the original puzzle picture before mods and what the car looks like today from the front:

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