Author Topic: Solved - NEH 1506: Ghia Dodge Firebomb purporting to be a Dual-Motors Firebomb  (Read 1713 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Carnut

  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 40948
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 423
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Despite appearances this is not a repost!
So what is this car?  1 point for the correct answer.

Google Image Search continues to raise its ugly head on AutoPuzzles.
For the sake of our newer members who may not be aware of past discussions on it, Google Image Search as a means of solving puzzles is banned on this website.

AutoPuzzles is primarily a game of automotive knowledge, not of who can copy and paste the quickest.

We ask all members to remember and respect this, and retain the right to ask puzzle-solvers how they came to their answer.

Have fun!
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 06:11:05 AM by Carnut »
Interests in life:  Cars, cars, cars - oh and ..er..cars

Offline richard cuyler

  • Expert
  • *
  • Posts: 2313
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 78
  • Retired architect. Likes to keep people smiling.
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: NEH 1506
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2012, 07:34:43 AM »
At last something I do know. This lovely thing is a 1954 Plymouth Belvedere chassis in gorgeous drag. Made by Ghia, this Virgil Exner inspired, Luigi Segre designed and Paul Farago tweaked car is called the 1954 Dodge Firebomb (not a name I would have chosen) four-seat convertible. It was based on the 1953 Dodge Firearrow ( that's better nomenclature for such automobile art 8)), designed and built by Ghia, also to guidelines set down by Exner. This was, in my opinion, Ghia's pinnacle period.

Offline Carnut

  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 40948
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 423
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: NEH 1506
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2012, 07:38:16 AM »
At last something I do know. This lovely thing is a 1954 Plymouth Belvedere chassis in gorgeous drag. Made by Ghia, this Virgil Exner inspired, Luigi Segre designed and Paul Farago tweaked car is called the 1954 Dodge Firebomb (not a name I would have chosen) four-seat convertible. It was based on the 1953 Dodge Firearrow ( that's better nomenclature for such automobile art 8)), designed and built by Ghia, also to guidelines set down by Exner. This was, in my opinion, Ghia's pinnacle period.

Well, you're very close and that is just about the same car, but just not quite..
The story is a complicated one but this car is not actually a Dodge.
Locked for you to have another look and see if you can give me what I'm looking for.
Interests in life:  Cars, cars, cars - oh and ..er..cars

Offline richard cuyler

  • Expert
  • *
  • Posts: 2313
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 78
  • Retired architect. Likes to keep people smiling.
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: NEH 1506
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2012, 08:10:46 AM »
Please unlock, Carnut. I really thought I had the answer. :-[

Offline Carnut

  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 40948
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 423
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: NEH 1506
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2012, 09:52:29 AM »
Please unlock, Carnut. I really thought I had the answer. :-[

Well you almost have really in that it's a Firebomb all right.
But it had various different guises and this is one of the other ones.
I'll keep it locked for you for another 24 hours in case that helps you to find it.
Interests in life:  Cars, cars, cars - oh and ..er..cars

Offline fgsavoia

  • *
  • Posts: 138
  • Country: it
  • Puzzle Points 23
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: NEH 1506
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2012, 02:49:23 PM »
Lancia?

Offline Carnut

  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 40948
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 423
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: NEH 1506
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2012, 06:08:23 PM »
Lancia?

This puzzle is actually locked for richard cuyler until 1500 hrs European Time Saturday, but I will tell you that it's not a Lancia.
Interests in life:  Cars, cars, cars - oh and ..er..cars

Offline fgsavoia

  • *
  • Posts: 138
  • Country: it
  • Puzzle Points 23
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: NEH 1506
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2012, 09:17:08 AM »
If not a Lancia, it should be a Dual-Ghia convertible - 1957
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 09:22:42 AM by fgsavoia »

Offline Carnut

  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 40948
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 423
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: NEH 1506
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2012, 01:54:53 PM »
If not a Lancia, it should be a Dual-Ghia convertible - 1957

Made/marketed by?
Interests in life:  Cars, cars, cars - oh and ..er..cars

Offline fgsavoia

  • *
  • Posts: 138
  • Country: it
  • Puzzle Points 23
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: NEH 1506
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2012, 02:25:15 PM »
Chrysler

Offline Carnut

  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 40948
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 423
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: NEH 1506
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2012, 09:33:25 AM »
Interests in life:  Cars, cars, cars - oh and ..er..cars

Offline fgsavoia

  • *
  • Posts: 138
  • Country: it
  • Puzzle Points 23
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: NEH 1506
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2012, 05:54:05 PM »
Dual Motors?

Offline Carnut

  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 40948
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 423
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: NEH 1506
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2012, 06:18:50 PM »
Dual Motors?

Yes!
Well done.
I'll move this one tomorrow when I have access to all my info but meantime 1 point has been addded.
Bad luck richard.
Interests in life:  Cars, cars, cars - oh and ..er..cars

Offline Carnut

  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 40948
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 423
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: NEH 1506
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2012, 05:33:21 AM »
The car was originally a Dodge concept but went through one or two guises before eventually becoming the Dual-Ghia.
One of the those was the Firebomb by Dual Motors Corporation of Detroit, but I don't know if they ever really got off the ground...

Interests in life:  Cars, cars, cars - oh and ..er..cars

Offline richard cuyler

  • Expert
  • *
  • Posts: 2313
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 78
  • Retired architect. Likes to keep people smiling.
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Solved - NEH 1506: Dual-Motors Firebomb
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2012, 07:03:21 AM »
Carnut, I'm not sure the car illustrated in the puzzle is a 1957 Dual Ghia. The Dual Ghia has vestigal tailfins and has a different windscreen surround and hubcaps - the Firebomb has no fins. If I am correct, then fgsovoia's answer may be wrong. My info comes from Exner's autobiography.

Offline fyreline

  • Expert
  • *
  • Posts: 791
  • Country: us
  • Puzzle Points 260
  • Livin' the Dream . . .
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Solved - NEH 1506: Dual-Motors Firebomb
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2012, 07:53:38 AM »
This is unfortunately a frequently-made error, due to poor information on many websites (many of which should know better). The car in the quiz is not a Dual Ghia, and was not made by them. It is, in fact, the 1953-54 Dodge Firebomb by Ghia. It was used by Eugene Cassarol, the principal of Dual Motors, as an exhibit at the Grosse Pointe Yacht Club to help raise funds for the new company and that's apparently where the on-going confusion began. The car that Dual Motors did produce as the Dual Ghia starting in 1956 featured very similar (but not identical) styling and was obviously also built by Ghia. The Firebomb is often referred to as a "prototype Dual Ghia" but that is incorrect. It is a stand-alone car that Dual Ghia based its styling on, that's all. I was very interested to see what the car would be identified as once Richard Cuyler was told it wasn't the Dodge Firebomb . . . and I was hoing it wouldn't be misidentified yet again as a Dual Ghia. Oh, well.
"You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are NOT entitled to your own facts"

Offline Carnut

  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 40948
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 423
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Solved - NEH 1506: Dual-Motors Firebomb
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2012, 09:33:16 AM »
To be honest I was confused myself..
The car though has actually been identified as a Dual-Motors, which is what I was looking for, but I have perhaps not insisted on the right full name (Dual-Motors Firebomb) and have inadvertantly accepted his earlier ID of the Dual Ghia without going back over the answers.  I should have insisted on being given the full name, Dual-Motors Firebomb, but since I had already confirmed that the car was a Firebomb I never thought to do that.
I didn't actually use the right photograph as I was basing my puzzle on the advertisement as per my picture above for the Dual-Motors Firebomb and that was the picture I intended to use; however I did see my photo described exactly as that on a website and I compared the two and decided they were identical so I left it..

I intended my puzzle not to be the original Dodge nor a Dual-Ghia but this Dual-Motors Corporation Firebomb, although I suspect they probably never actually made any cars and used a picture of the Dodge Firebomb in their publicity?  Is that right?

I know the Dual Ghia is a different car completely and the intention is not that this car is one of those; It has, I'm sure, been a puzzle before.

So have I jumped the gun and called this one solved before anyone got the full and correct answer?  Or did fgsavioa really ID it correctly?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 09:42:39 AM by Carnut »
Interests in life:  Cars, cars, cars - oh and ..er..cars

Offline fyreline

  • Expert
  • *
  • Posts: 791
  • Country: us
  • Puzzle Points 260
  • Livin' the Dream . . .
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Solved - NEH 1506: Dual-Motors Firebomb
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2012, 01:16:38 PM »
Very, very easy to get these cars confused . . . but in the final analysis, the car in the quiz is not a Dual Motors product. It is the Dodge Firebomb, built as a Chrysler Corporation show car by Ghia.  No Dual Motors connection at all, other than being shown by Gene Cassarole to attract investors to his new Dual Motors company. It was shown to demonstrate approximately what the forthcoming Dual Ghia might look like - and it did turn out to be very simlar, although many details and dimensions differed.

If the car in the quiz has been "identified as a Dual Motors", it has been identified incorrectly.

Quote
I intended my puzzle not to be the original Dodge nor a Dual-Ghia but this Dual-Motors Corporation Firebomb, although I suspect they probably never actually made any cars and used a picture of the Dodge Firebomb in their publicity?  Is that right?

Yes, you have it exactly. There is no such thing as a Dual-Motors Corporation Firebomb. They built Dual Ghias, which this car is not. The advertisement you posted is part of the on-going problem . . . and it is entirely incorrect. Dual Motors did not build the car in that ad, and it was not built for them.  It was, again, simply "borrowed" by Gene Cassarole so he would have something to show investors. There was more than one Dodge Firebomb built by Ghia, I can only assume Gene Cassarol bought one of them to use as an inspiration for his own later car. For my money, Richard Cuyler got it correct in the first place by identifying the car as the Dodge Firebomb built by Ghia . . . because that's exactly what it is. However, as always, your quiz, your call.

Just a quick (but important) aside here . . . I am in no way impugning Carnut’s intentions or choice of puzzle car. His quizzes have added a lot to what continues to make this site so much fun. This isn’t the first puzzle that has been incorrectly “solved”, and won’t be the last.  If you want to get bad results, start with bad information – there’s a lot of it out there. Even some of the museums that display these cars have them incorrectly labeled, or have signs that perpetuate incorrect information. It’s really, really bad form to whip out a black magic marker and correct their signage – also a good way to get banned from a museum for life, and rightly so. I hope my efforts to “get the story right” on this car will not be seen as a criticism or attack.  I certainly don’t mean it that way, and I hope Carnut will take my comments in the spirit in which they are intended:  an honest effort to get the facts straight. Again, I appreciate the effort he makes to post these puzzles for all of us to enjoy, and if anything I have posted offends, I apologize.

« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 06:03:38 PM by fyreline »
"You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are NOT entitled to your own facts"

Offline fgsavoia

  • *
  • Posts: 138
  • Country: it
  • Puzzle Points 23
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Solved - NEH 1506: Dual-Motors Firebomb
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2012, 06:41:20 PM »
The things i just read were the reason because i answered Chrysler the first time.
I was not sure if that was the prototype or the Dual Motors production car.

Offline Carnut

  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 40948
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 423
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Solved - NEH 1506: Dual-Motors Firebomb
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2012, 05:48:44 AM »
I'll have to have a re-think!
I'm not in any way, shape or form offended.
I like information to be right - and I most certainly don't know everything!
Thanks for your input fyreline.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 06:09:06 AM by Carnut »
Interests in life:  Cars, cars, cars - oh and ..er..cars

Offline Carnut

  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 40948
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 423
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
OK, I've changed the heading to what it is and what it was meant to be!
I've given richard cuyler a point as he got it right; I've also left fgsavoia with a point because he gave me what I asked for so it wouldn't be fair to take his point away again!
Hope we have the story right now.. maybe it would be best to merge it but perhaps not as this incorporated the Dual-Motors story too now.
Interests in life:  Cars, cars, cars - oh and ..er..cars

Offline fyreline

  • Expert
  • *
  • Posts: 791
  • Country: us
  • Puzzle Points 260
  • Livin' the Dream . . .
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
An elegant solution. I wish it were that easy to convince some museums that their posted information is incorrect, but I'm sure we've all seen evidence to the contrary. Thanks for getting it right, and keep those puzzles coming!
"You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are NOT entitled to your own facts"

Offline richard cuyler

  • Expert
  • *
  • Posts: 2313
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 78
  • Retired architect. Likes to keep people smiling.
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Thanks, fyreline for your input and thanks also Carnut for your diplomatic one-point-each to fgsavoia and to me  8). In addition to being a great admirer of Virgil Exner's work (up to the early sixties) and therefore having his biography (by Peter Grist) to hand, I was able to check and re-check before posting my response.

When I was still at school, all my exercise book covers displayed my drawings of cars, most of them with copious Exner cues, from the Studebaker Starlight Coupe, to the wonderfully restrained 'Forward Look' series, to the '57 befinned Chrysler cars. As a (retired) designer myself, I have to say that, although never someone to have sufficient faith in anyone to call them 'my hero', I think Exner was the only one who came closest. His biography has proved to me that (as I had heard in the 60s from a relative who had many dealings with him) not only was he a talented designer with truly unique and innovative ideas, most importantly he was a genuinely giving, caring and gentle man, qualities not oft found in an industry with underhanded scrabbling so frequently used by executives to reach the top of their ladder.

Offline grobmotorix

  • Professional
  • *
  • Posts: 15118
  • Country: de
  • Puzzle Points 457
  • Please play fair guys
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
    • My car photography
The Dodge Firebomb was shown in Geneva in 1955 like that: