Author Topic: Solved - NEH 1918: Drogo Iso Rivolta Breadvan - 1965  (Read 761 times)

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Offline Carnut

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Solved - NEH 1918: Drogo Iso Rivolta Breadvan - 1965
« on: July 11, 2012, 06:04:59 AM »
What's this, by whom, from when - for 1 point?:

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Offline pftnbr

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Re: NEH 1918
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2012, 08:59:40 AM »
Ferrari 250 GT Drogo?

Offline Carnut

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Re: NEH 1918
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2012, 09:22:21 AM »
Ferrari 250 GT Drogo?

It's not a Ferrari, but the body is believed to be by Drogo.
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Offline pftnbr

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Re: NEH 1918
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2012, 10:42:48 AM »
1965 Iso Rivolta by Drogo

Offline Carnut

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Re: NEH 1918
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2012, 11:00:36 AM »
1965 Iso Rivolta by Drogo

Yes.
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Online Oguerrerob

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Re: Solved - NEH 1918: Drogo Iso Rivolta Breadvan - 1965
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2012, 11:54:37 AM »
Breadvan

Offline Carnut

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Re: Solved - NEH 1918: Drogo Iso Rivolta Breadvan - 1965
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2012, 11:56:28 AM »
Breadvan

Yes, that is the Ferrari 250 GT nicknamed "Breadvan" due to its unusual (certainly at the time) appearance, which actually directly inspired the Iso Rivolta version!
« Last Edit: July 12, 2012, 04:26:03 AM by Carnut »
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Offline D-type

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Re: Solved - NEH 1918: Drogo Iso Rivolta Breadvan - 1965
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2012, 05:12:32 PM »
Just to set the record straight.  The Ferrari 'Breadvan' was not a 250 GTO.  For various political reasons, Enzo Ferrari refused to sell a GTO to  Count Giovanni Volpi, patron of Scuderia Serenissima.  Count Volpi therefore commissioned Gioto Bizzarrini and Carlo Chiti to develop the Ferrari 250GT SWB #2819 which he owned into a GTO beater.  This they did and the 'Breadvan' with its striking Kamm-tailed Piero Drogo built body was the result. 
The full story is on the web - Google "Ferrari Breadvan"
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Offline Carnut

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Re: Solved - NEH 1918: Drogo Iso Rivolta Breadvan - 1965
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2012, 04:27:35 AM »
Just to set the record straight.  The Ferrari 'Breadvan' was not a 250 GTO.  For various political reasons, Enzo Ferrari refused to sell a GTO to  Count Giovanni Volpi, patron of Scuderia Serenissima.  Count Volpi therefore commissioned Gioto Bizzarrini and Carlo Chiti to develop the Ferrari 250GT SWB #2819 which he owned into a GTO beater.  This they did and the 'Breadvan' with its striking Kamm-tailed Piero Drogo built body was the result. 
The full story is on the web - Google "Ferrari Breadvan"


Thanks for straightening me out D-Type.  I did actually know that but had forgotten since it's some years since I read the full story!
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Offline thewarlord

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Re: Solved - NEH 1918: Drogo Iso Rivolta Breadvan - 1965
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2012, 07:13:19 AM »
someone please bring to light any period photograph of the so called 'Drogo Iso Rivolta Breadvan - 1965'

I bet, no one could ever do. I think that car is as false as a 147,5€ bankote with the face of Cleopatra...

Offline Carnut

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Re: Solved - NEH 1918: Drogo Iso Rivolta Breadvan - 1965
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2012, 07:46:06 AM »
someone please bring to light any period photograph of the so called 'Drogo Iso Rivolta Breadvan - 1965'

I bet, no one could ever do. I think that car is as false as a 147,5€ bankote with the face of Cleopatra...

You're right - no period shots out there!
Below is the spiel about this car.
Of course there are plenty of instances of people claiming cars are something they're not, but having spent what must have been a very great deal of money making this car, why claim something that could easily be checked by any historian worth his salt?!

QUOTE
This 1965 Iso Rivolta wears an custom aluminum body in the style of the famous Ferrari GTO breadvan. The Ferrari was bodied by Piero Drogo and others including Bizzarrini, and the seller of this car claims that the body was “reputedly” made in 1965 by Drogo. Find it headed to auction at the awesome Silverstone Classic Sale on July 21st in the UK. Special thanks to BaT reader Kyle K. for this submission!
 


No racing history is itemized in the listing, but the car is said to have been used in numerous Italian hillclimbs. That seems odd as if it was really built in 1965, it would have most likely been for motorsport purposes and well photographed. Also, hillclimbs wouldn’t usually achieve speeds where the kamm-tail design was supposed to offer advantages.
 
The condition of the car looks amazing, with a clean race-spec interior and a spartan dash that integrates several of the factory dials. Race buckets, belts, and a very small steering wheel likely make this one a handfull on public roads.
 
THe front end design is equally interesting, with clear GTO cues as well as some Bizzarrini lines as well. It seems like the rear ride height needs to be lowered about 2 inches to give the car the right attitude to match the 650 horsepower engine.
 
This is a very odd car, but one that we’d love to see on the racetrack. Even if it was never seen in competition back in the day, it would make an interesting conversation pice in the paddock. Standard body Rivoltas always look a bit bulky in race trim, so this might be one of the better RIvolta race cars out there.
UNQUOTE

And from the Silverstone Auctions site:

QUOTE
Registration: NA
Chassis Number: IR460368
Engine Number: Not Specified
Number of cylinders: 8
CC: 5700
Year of Manufacture: 1965
Estimate (£): 55,000 - 75,000


In 1962 Giotto Bizzarrini was hired by Count Giovanni Volpi, owner of Scuderia Serenissima, to uprate a Ferrari 250 GT SWB to GTO Specification. Ferrari had refused to sell Volpi a GTO. At the time, several Ferrari 250 GT SWB cars were developed by Bizzarrini, Drogo, Neri and Bonacini, some to GTO specification, and all had distinctive bodies with similar shapes.
Bizzarrini applied all the ideas from the GTO and developed, with Piero Drogo of Carrozzeria Sports Cars in Modena, an aerodynamically advanced body, even lower than the GTO with the roof line dramatically extended to the rear end, then abruptly truncated following the Kamm aerodynamic theory. The car was completed in just 14 days and chassis number #2819GT, known as the Ferrari Breadvan, is still raced in vintage sports car events today.
At least another two 250 GT series cars were developed by Bizzarrini, Piero Drogo, and team-mates Neri and Bonacini to GTO specification and received distinctive bodies with similar advanced shapes.
This car is based on the chassis and running gear of an Iso Rivolta. It is believed to have been built in 1965 using an alloy body reputedly designed and made by Drogo in the classic Breadvan shape. Fitted with a 450bhp V8 Chevrolet engine and set up for competition use, this Iso would be extremely competitive in historic racing.
Over the years the car has been predominantly used in Italian hill climb events and in small regional races. When discovered by the last owner, the engine was rebuilt and the car restored. It was then used on the Tour Britannia and other rallies in Europe. Recently brought back from Pisa, the vendor reports that: "the car is mechanically in excellent condition, starts easily, is tremendously powerful and sounds amazing!" Supplied with EU registration papers, this all aluminium bodied Iso is a fine testament to the Ferrari Breadvan and could even house a Ferrari engine and running gear, if a suitable 250 donor could be found.
UNQUOTE
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Offline Allan L

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Re: Solved - NEH 1918: Drogo Iso Rivolta Breadvan - 1965
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2012, 08:08:10 AM »
I agree that there is not a chance it was given that body in 1965, and the text you quote is pretty fanciful - including the last bit of all which implies that a Ferrari motor would in some way be relevant.

The phrase It is believed to have been built in 1965 uses a form of words that usually means "I want you to believe . . . . although there is not a shred of evidence to support me"

Someone in a Ferrari forum posted:
Factory shows chassis being built March 11 1964 sold as a standard Rivolta GT to owner in France with 340 HP engine 4 speed 3.31 rear end with Borrani's. At some point it was imported into the US, the Rivolta GT was listed by Golden classics.com in 2005

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Offline Carnut

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Re: Solved - NEH 1918: Drogo Iso Rivolta Breadvan - 1965
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2012, 09:17:13 AM »
the text you quote is pretty fanciful - including the last bit of all which implies that a Ferrari motor would in some way be relevant.

Quite.  That text is of course from the auctioneers though, who, whilst doing their best not to commit themselves to anything that might not be true/provable, are trying to flog the car for as much money as possible!

With the chassis number, though, as mentioned before, any respected Iso historian would be able to check its history out pretty thoroughly and de-bunk any wishful thinking..
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Offline Carnut

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Re: Solved - NEH 1918: Drogo Iso Rivolta Breadvan - 1965
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2012, 09:49:02 AM »
Apparently this car was entered in the Coy's auction at Techno Classica, Essen 2011.
I can't find any result for it, however, so either it was withdrawn or didn't sell.
It was described as a "1967 Iso Rivolta rebodied in the early 1970s" and this is the spiel from their catalogue:

QUOTE
Based on the Iso Rivolta, this alloy bodied, lightweight racing chassis has at its heart a 550bhp aluminium racing engine putting its power through a 4 speed gearbox.
Built in the early 1970s in Italy, the car has been constructed to the highest quality and attention to detail including drilled pedals, lightened sills and an overall finish that is second to none. The car remained mostly in and around Livorno on the Italian Mediterranean coast, underwent a restoration in Pisa, Italy and is described by the current vendor as being in concours condition.
With a lightweight body and chassis fitted to an engine producing well in excess of 500bhp, the performance is as you would imagine - electrifying!
Faster and rarer than a Bizzarrini 5300, this unique Breadvan is stunning in every respect and a true collector’s car.
UNQUOTE

Coy's are not noted for repeating wild claims...

« Last Edit: July 12, 2012, 10:08:26 AM by Carnut »
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Re: Solved - NEH 1918: Drogo Iso Rivolta Breadvan - 1965
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2012, 09:55:57 AM »
Just to add a little more fuel to the fire, the site referred to shows a photo of the motor.  It's attached.

If the sticker on the valve cover can be believed, then at some time, someone has replaced the alleged "original" 5.7L (350 cid) with a 327 (5358 cc) unit.  There's not a lotta difference between the two...the 350 is essentially a 327 with a longer stroke and, depending on the year of manufacture, 350s can use "large journal" crankshafts and 4-bolt main bearing caps.  Personally, I think the 4-bolt mains are kinda overrated, even though that's what I run in the 550hp 406 in my salt flats car.  I also run a carburetor that's essentially the same as what's shown in the photo, a Holley "double pumper."

The claim of 650 hp from a normally-aspirated 327, while possible, is pretty optimistic.  It'd be a "hand grenade" motor, good for a very short period of time...like several passes down a 1/4 mile track...certainly not useable in any type of endurance racing.  I might consider something like that useable on the salt flats for one meet (maybe 6 passes) and then prepare to rebuild it.

The 450 hp figure for both the 350 and 327 is much more believable.

Two other things.  The first year of availability for a 350 was 1967.  It's possible that a stroker crank was used in the 327 to create that, but not all that likely.  Second, if you look at the exhaust manifolds, you'll see that they're cast-iron "ram's horn" design.  That was the factory stock setup.  While they aren't terribly restrictive, there's no way you could get 650 hp out of 'em.

As far as being a handful on hillclimbs, larger steering wheels and power steering pumps are easy to come by.  It'd be about the same as running a Corvette or race-prepared Camaro.

Just more mud in the water.

« Last Edit: July 12, 2012, 10:00:32 AM by RayTheRat »

Offline woodinsight

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Re: Solved - NEH 1918: Drogo Iso Rivolta Breadvan - 1965
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2012, 03:16:10 AM »
Apparently this car was entered in the Coy's auction at Techno Classica, Essen 2011.
I can't find any result for it, however, so either it was withdrawn or didn't sell.
It was described as a "1967 Iso Rivolta rebodied in the early 1970s" and this is the spiel from their catalogue:

QUOTE
Based on the Iso Rivolta, this alloy bodied, lightweight racing chassis has at its heart a 550bhp aluminium racing engine putting its power through a 4 speed gearbox.
Built in the early 1970s in Italy, the car has been constructed to the highest quality and attention to detail including drilled pedals, lightened sills and an overall finish that is second to none. The car remained mostly in and around Livorno on the Italian Mediterranean coast, underwent a restoration in Pisa, Italy and is described by the current vendor as being in concours condition.
With a lightweight body and chassis fitted to an engine producing well in excess of 500bhp, the performance is as you would imagine - electrifying!
Faster and rarer than a Bizzarrini 5300, this unique Breadvan is stunning in every respect and a true collector’s car.
UNQUOTE

Coy's are not noted for repeating wild claims...


I don't think this car is the same as the puzzle car - differences in nose, side vents, front & rear wing lines, etc.
I can foresee real identification problems for future historians with all the 'replica' Ferraris, Maseratis, Alfas and now Isos that have been built in various workshops.

Offline Carnut

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Re: Solved - NEH 1918: Drogo Iso Rivolta Breadvan - 1965
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2012, 04:29:55 AM »
Hmmm..   there are differences as you say, yes.  Must say I hadn't noticed.
So I wonder if it got damaged and someone fitted a new front, or if someone with a knackered old Iso Rivolta IR350 saw the one last year and thought "I'll build one of those and pass it off as the same car"!
The wheels on my puzzle car look a bit wrong compared with those of the car auctioned by Coy's and based on that I would say it is in fact a reasonably competent modern-day replica (at risk of being sued!)
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