Topic: WWWW #267 David Bruce-Brown /Benz / 1910 American Grand Prix

[Otto Puzzell]

For one point: identify the this car, the driver, the place the photo was taken, and the year.  

Only a complete and specific answer will earn a point!  

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[Wendax]

It is a Benz 150 PS. Three of them took part at the American Grand Prix in 1908 at Savannah. The drivers were Fritz Erle, Victor Héméry and René Hanriot. I try Hanriot first.

[Otto Puzzell]

Right place, right brand of car. The driver and the year are different, however.

[Wendax]

Barney Oldfield 1909?

[Otto Puzzell]

Not Barney, and not 1909

[Wendax]

David Bruce-Brown, winner of the 1910 American Grand Prix

[Otto Puzzell]

That's the ticket!

[RayTheRat]

Wow!  If I'd awakened an hour sooner....

Oh, well.  No use crying over spilled milk.  It just makes it salty for the cat.

Here are some photos I found of the "American Grand Prize" as it was apparently called at Savannah, Georgia and the winner, Mr. Bruce-Brown.  I never did find out if it was a 150 hp Benz, tho.

[motorcar1]

Fact finding guys>>

Being this was in America;
Was there any earlier race held in America that predates this race?

Not just any race, but one that carried importance?
I ask this for research purposes.

Racing archives for much of AAA, a lot of early SCCA and FIA was thrown away, gasp.

John

[RayTheRat]

There were many races in the US, but probably the most significant one (prior to 1911) was the Vanderbilt Cup, held on Long Island, NY from 1904 to 1916, with the exception of 1907 and 1913.  These races drew an international field, in somewhat the same way the the Gordon Bennett Cup did in Europe.  Ironically, Bennett was an American but all the races he promoted/sponsored were outside the US.

The Indianapolis 500 was won by European entries from 1912 to 1919 and was part of the FIA World Championship from 1950 to 1960, but I don't think anyone in F1 cared.   

I don't know if I'm repeating information you already have, but it's a shot at an answer, anyway.

[motorcar1]

I have pretty good luck in getting info from Wikipedia.

They have a very strong policy, no rhetoric, no assumption etc, their researches sift through hundreds of docs and pics before they place it as fact in their search engine.

That is the reason I asked the question.
Wiki claims that the first true race was out of Chicago, forgot the dates at this time and who won.

The research revolves around who did what and when in the infant days of building the AAA, FIA and the SCCA.

Unfortunatly, many records were thrown into a dumpster, actually talked with one of the archivists/historians which did just that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Soooo, it makes it exceptionally hard to gather true facts, which is what I have to "deal" with in my research.
John

[RayTheRat]

Well, guess who the researchers at Wikipedia are?  They're guys like you and me who edit the pages on their own time with no requirement for any certain level of validation.  There are people who check newly added or edited pages (they're volunteers, just like the people who enter the information), but if someone makes a citation, like to a book or website, they'll usually let it go at that.  I've edited many pages to add information or correct errors under a pseudonym.  But sometimes, there are things that can't be corrected. 

If you search, for instance, for "Ford Model B", you'll see that the page should be titled "Ford Flathead V8 cars" or something like that, with the Models B and C as subheadings.  I've been trying to get that corrected for 18 months or so, but since the Model B page is a "root" entry, all the gurus I've corresponded with have told me that it can't be changed.  I asked, "what would happen if I started a section for Ford Automobile and then added all the different models as subheadings.  They said that wouldn't work, because someone has already added the models as roots.  Look for Ford Automobile and see what you find.

You can also look at Land Speed Record.  Until late last year, there was very little about it.  I added the section for "Piston-Engined, Wheel-Driven" (FIA category A, Group 1, Class 11) records, since I'm on a team that's going after the unlimited record.  The only thing that was questioned was the release of my photographs to Wikimedia Commons.  Nothing about speeds, dates or any other verifiable fact was questioned, since I cited my own website as one of the references.  The info there is valid, but it isn't official.  The other two are cites that I know are well-researched (but not official), but not the actual FIA record site which is impossible to link to for a given class.

So, while Wikipedia is a good place to start, it's, in my opinion, a good place to start, but further research is needed to corroborate facts, especially if accuracy is the goal as it seems to be here.

I hope this sheds some light on Wikipedia.

RtR

[motorcar1]

RTR,
I find your comments interesting, btw, good luck with the speed attempt, I used to live about 90 miles from Bonneville.
I guess that I place to much faith in what wiki states.

When I get the time, I am going to go back and find the race wiki refers to, it will/would be interesting to correct wiki if the other races noted herein all predate what they make claim to as the first in Chicago.

Yes, I truly am trying to be as exacting and accurate as possible in my research.
Records and history are very hard to find for early racing, > who did what and the actual beginings of racing organizations in the past.
I managed to trace FIA beginings within the US, but most everything is vague and without all the others that made it happen.
The SCCA was in all sense, founded in california by disgruntled racers, but the National development, sanctioning and hard rules were not.
I will probably never finish this dam story>> never enough time>>>
Thanks,
John

Guys>>>>>> I just cut this from wiki>>>> hope this is ok>>>> ironically>> a Benz car was there. 1895

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Times-Herald_race
\
They had a rather large purse for the winner

[Wendax]

The Benz 150 PS Grand Prix racecar in 1908 with interesting mudguards: