Author Topic: Solved - NEH 2211: Lagonda Protytpe 'LBS EX1' - 1947  (Read 619 times)

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Offline Carnut

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Solved - NEH 2211: Lagonda Protytpe 'LBS EX1' - 1947
« on: October 30, 2012, 07:13:26 AM »
What's this, from when - for 1 point?:

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Offline Carnut

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Re: NEH 2211
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2012, 04:15:13 AM »
Experts?
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Offline mekubb

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Re: NEH 2211
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2012, 07:56:44 AM »
Alta ?

Offline Carnut

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Re: NEH 2211
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2012, 09:00:03 AM »
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Offline gilescooperuk

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Re: NEH 2211
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2012, 04:15:50 AM »
Allard?
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Offline Carnut

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Re: NEH 2211
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2012, 04:46:45 AM »
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Offline mekubb

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Re: NEH 2211
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2012, 04:57:41 PM »
British though ?

Offline thehotstepper

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Re: NEH 2211
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2012, 06:44:57 PM »
Frazer-Nash?

Offline Zerk

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Re: NEH 2211
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2012, 10:28:24 AM »
I think this is a more modern interpretation of a sports racer of the '30s. Jaguar running gear?

Offline Carnut

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Re: NEH 2211
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2012, 02:46:39 PM »
Yes, it's British - but neither a Frazer-Nash nor any relation to Jaguar..
And don't think it's a modern interpretation but a genuine original from those days..
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Offline gilescooperuk

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Re: NEH 2211
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2012, 01:58:09 AM »
Is it front wheel drive?
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Offline Carnut

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Re: NEH 2211
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2012, 08:03:13 AM »
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Offline spider

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Re: NEH 2211
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2012, 02:06:57 PM »
Riley ??

Offline geology

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Re: NEH 2211
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2012, 05:03:23 PM »
Aston Martin?

Offline D-type

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Re: NEH 2211
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2012, 05:43:11 PM »
Designed by W O Bentley?
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Offline Carnut

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Re: NEH 2211
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2012, 06:01:31 AM »
It's neither a Riley nor an Aston-Martin - but it was designed by W.O. Bentley, yes!
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Offline D-type

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Re: NEH 2211
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2012, 06:49:37 AM »
Lagonda V12 from 1939
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Offline Carnut

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Re: NEH 2211
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2012, 07:07:59 AM »
Lagonda V12 from 1939

It's a Lagonda, but not a V12 and not from 1939.
Since you've identified the make I'll lock it for you for 24 hours to see if you can find out its full details.
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Offline D-type

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Re: NEH 2211
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2012, 08:45:22 AM »
1947 Lagonda 2.6 litre LBS EX1 prototype sports car chassis LAG/49/77.  Originally badged "Lagonda-Bentley" which led to Rolls-Royce taking legal action.  The first car probably the first car built by Lagonda after WW2 and the last with W O Bentley involvement.  As the car was converted by Aston Martin Lagonda into a service van for the race team, the body is a later creation of unknown origin.

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Offline Carnut

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Re: NEH 2211
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2012, 09:14:04 AM »
1947 Lagonda 2.6 litre LBS EX1 prototype sports car chassis LAG/49/77.  Originally badged "Lagonda-Bentley" which led to Rolls-Royce taking legal action.  The first car probably the first car built by Lagonda after WW2 and the last with W O Bentley involvement.  As the car was converted by Aston Martin Lagonda into a service van for the race team, the body is a later creation of unknown origin.



That's the car, yes.
The story is slightly different from the original one I had, which now seems to have disappeared off the 'Net to be replaced by the story quoted below, and I note it is different in a number of points from the story being put out now by the auctioneers (for instance there was no mention of the delivery van stage in my blurb, and they speculate that this body was attached to the car in 1948..)
As usual with these cases the truth is possibly somewhere between the lines..

Here's the story roughly as I had it from the start:

QUOTE
It is said that when David Brown acquired Lagonda in 1947 all he got was a famous name, a collection of engineering drawings and a handful of prototypes. And although Lagonda's chief engineer and designer, the great W O Bentley, quit the firm when Brown took over, he did leave behind the 2.6-litre, six-cylinder, twin-overhead-camshaft LB6 engine that would power the Aston Martin DB2 and the next generation of Lagondas.
'W O' had begun work on the new Lagonda sports saloon in 1944, assisted by W G Watson and Donald Bastow, and by September 1945 had got the first prototype ready for unveiling to the motoring press. Although it retained a separate chassis, Bentley's design was advanced in other ways, featuring independent suspension all round: by double wishbones and coil-springs at the front - a layout similar to that adopted later on the DB4 - and semi-trailing arms and torsion bars at the rear where the hydraulic drum brakes were mounted inboard to reduce un-sprung weight.
It is not known when the car offered here - chassis number 'LBS EX1', the first Lagonda 2.6-Litre prototype - was fitted with the current sports-racer body, though the accompanying history file speculates that the factory might have re-bodied it as a potential Le Mans contender for the 1949 race.
In 2011, while waiting with 'LBS EX1' in the assembly area for a classic vehicle road rally, the current owner was approached by the elderly but nonetheless sprightly owner of a pre-war Lagonda parked nearby, who proceeded to recall driving 'LBS EXl' when he and Donald Bastow swapped cars and raced against each other in a sprint at Sandtoft Airfield in 1967/8. He was certain of his recollection of the date as he had got married just prior to the encounter. It is possible that when he left Lagonda Donald Bastow took the original prototype car/chassis with him, perhaps as some form of recompense.
'LBS EX1' had been out of circulation for many years when it appeared at a Lincolnshire farm sale in 1971 and was bought by Ian Harris, whose family runs the specialist restoration company, TT Workshops Ltd. The car became the subject of much correspondence with the Lagonda Club's Arnold Davey and was confirmed as a prototype chassis. Subsequently it was owned by Crispin Harris, Perkins & Partners of Wellingborough, Northamptonshire and then by Neil Perkins before being acquired by the current vendor in March 1996. Since acquisition the Lagonda has been cared for by Aston Service Dorset while modifications carried out during the past 15 years include installing a higher-ratio final drive, upgraded ignition system and improved cooling arrangements. More recently, Wren Classics of Donhead St Mary, Dorset have improved the performance of the replacement Aston Martin 3.0-litre engine by fitting a DB3S camshaft, modifying the cylinder head along DB3S lines and fitting new cylinder liners, 9.5:1 compression ratio pistons and Carrillo con-rods.
Benefiting from this recent engine overhaul, 'LBS EX1' is described by the vendor as in generally good condition and offered with current road fund licence, MoT to June 2012 and Swansea V5 registration document and a file of fascinating history.
UNQUOTE
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 03:11:13 PM by Carnut »
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Offline D-type

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Re: Solved - NEH 2211: Lagonda Protytpe 'LBS EX1' - 1947
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2012, 01:01:26 PM »
I think that's the Bonhams blurb you're quoting.  They are generally more accurate than some.  Here's  an extract from the earlier H&H Auctions blurb
 
Quote
Though Lagonda was heavily committed to the war effort, the company nevertheless found time to plan for the return of car production. Conscious that his V12 engine would be too extravagant a masterpiece for the post war economy, W.O. set about the design of an all new DOHC six-cylinder unit of 2.6-litres (LB6) and an equally new Sports Saloon for it to power. With assistance from William Watson and Donald Bastow, the first of three prototypes (LBS EX1) was completed by September 1945. Though the team eschewed the trend towards monocoque construction, the model, that would become known simply as the 2.6-Litre, did have several innovative design features. They included all-round independent suspension (coil springs and wishbones for the front and semi-trailing arms and torsion bars at the rear), that was claimed as a first for a British manufacturer. The newcomer also featured inboard brakes at the rear, in order to minimise unsprung weight. However, the company was in financial trouble and production of the 2.6-Litre was delayed until 1948, by which time Lagonda was in the hands of millionaire industrialist David Brown and linked to Aston Martin. At this point, Bentley and Bastow departed the new Aston Martin Lagonda (AML) concern and exactly what happened to LBS EX1 is open to a degree of speculation.

One theory is that it was then that the current sports racing format was adopted and the resulting car presented to David Brown as a potential entry for the 1949 Le Mans 24 Hour race. However, there is no definitive evidence to support this supposition. Moreover, within the last few years the Lagonda Club has been sent photos which suggest the car was initially converted into a service van and used as a tender for the AML Works Team during the mid-1950s. If so, its current two-seater configuration would more likely have been the handiwork of an unknown special builder. One thing that's relatively certain, is that EX1 is the only prototype 2.6-Litre chassis to have survived (though, most of its running gear has been replaced over the years) as, according to Arnold Davey of the Lagonda Club, EX2 and EX3 were fitted with new chassis by the factory before being sold off as production cars.

It's typical auctioneer speak - If they are sure of their facts they tell the story; if not, it's a case of putting in a "We understand ..." or "It has been suggested ..." and saying something plausible but sufficiently vague that it can't be checked.  Presumably their researchers were unable to find out who built the body or when it was done.
There's no smoke without fire: I recall that a contemporary book, The Fast ones by Peter Miller, said that in the fifties the Aston Martin team did have a Lagonda station wagon or van as a support vehicle (I forget which).  He recalled that when they had back axle trouble in Italy they were able to replace it with one for a Jeep rear axle that had either been left behind by the US Army or 'liberated' from them. But I have no idea whether it was this car or another.
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Offline autospeurder

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Re: Solved - NEH 2211: Lagonda Protytpe 'LBS EX1' - 1947
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2012, 03:07:59 PM »
There was indeed a Lagonda shooting brake (woody)of which I have a small picture .I am looking for a bigger picture and the name of the coachbuilder.