Author Topic: Solved: Allemano's № 463 - Mercedes Benz C-111 II study by Bruno Sacco (Read 3367 times)

Allemano · « **Reply #25 on:** July 26, 2011, 03:32:41 PM »

This is getting be more and more interisting. A quite reliable source states that it's a Study for the C111 by Paul Bracq and not by Sacco...
I'm getting some related literature soon. Will update this topic when I'm more in the know.

thewarlord · « **Reply #26 on:** July 26, 2011, 04:35:29 PM »

If I am not wrong, Bracq would have left MB by 1967; so, he might have started it, and Sacco finished it, although seems that the proposal lack some refining or detailing.

In any case, if this proposed car was designed around 1967-1968, it was a pretty old fashioned design by then, too 'Miuresque' of Dino in its curves, while the trend was becoming the wedge -Carabo, or just look at the 1969 Geneva shown first C111.

fyreline · « **Reply #27 on:** July 26, 2011, 09:09:57 PM »

A few fussy details aside, I think this is easily the best-looking of the C-111's.

Allemano · « **Reply #28 on:** July 27, 2011, 02:00:01 AM »

Quote from: thewarlord on July 26, 2011, 04:35:29 PM

If I am not wrong, Bracq would have left MB by 1967; so, he might have started it, and Sacco finished it, although seems that the proposal lack some refining or detailing.

In any case, if this proposed car was designed around 1967-1968, it was a pretty old fashioned design by then, too 'Miuresque' of Dino in its curves, while the trend was becoming the wedge -Carabo, or just look at the 1969 Geneva shown first C111.

Mercedes Benz was never the most innovative company in car design. Don't know if they looked too much to Italia at all. I guess with its swollen curves it was more about to attract the US customers and fyreline seems to confirm

There are few more sketches available showing an even more USAmerican design style.

thewarlord · « **Reply #29 on:** July 27, 2011, 02:47:02 AM »

Cannot remember those sketches. Of course I am interested in them.

There was a fantastic light blue small model from MB for the C111 which looked pretty italian. Surely widely known.

Allemano · « **Reply #30 on:** July 27, 2011, 02:52:25 AM »

I guess you mean this one:

thewarlord · « **Reply #31 on:** July 27, 2011, 03:02:58 AM »

right, that's the one. Never saw any other view of it, though I'd love to. This proposal was having something of Bertone's Stratos 0, but, Strato's 0 came in 1970, so, if this proposal was ever inspired by the Bertone creation, it cannot be a proposal for the 1969 three rotor C111.

Allemano · « **Reply #32 on:** July 27, 2011, 03:20:21 AM »

Here are three more examples for designs of Paul Bracq. The one on black canson dates from 1965 and is quite similar in detail to the puzzle C111.
Another thing that tends me to say it's indeed a Bracq design is the second sketch of a coupé which clearly has some of the same styling elements.

3rd sketch shows another (Bracq?) design for a Mercedes coupé with a strong US-American feel.

I copied these pics from an internet source without any reliability, but get the original book soon.
Watch this place!

thewarlord · « **Reply #33 on:** July 27, 2011, 03:28:22 AM »

Thanks a lot!! I'll wait impatiently, though;-)

If first drawing dates from 1965, it clearly was a GT40 influenced design, the same as Miura. But I wonder if C101/C1111 project had begun at all so very soon, of if the Bracq/Sacco designs do not indeed belong to some other previous initiative for a flagship MB sportscar unrelated to Wankel engines experiments.

Allemano · « **Reply #34 on:** July 27, 2011, 03:37:12 AM »

That internet source reports that the puzzle car in particular was simply captioned "sportscar study, intended for a Wankel engine" while the sketches were captioned "various mid/rear-engined sportscar concepts"

Like in many other cases it's not easy to follow the exact path after ~45 years.
As soon as I've received the book (1 - 2 weeks) I'll post the news – if they are any...

Ecnelis · « **Reply #35 on:** July 28, 2011, 11:16:40 AM »

Here's the info I got some time ago from C. Knecht from Daimler AG Archives and Classic Car Collection:

Quote

(...) The car, which was built in the year 1969, was constructed by Bruno Sacco. Bruno Sacco was the chief stylist of Mercedes-Benz from 1974 to 1999. One of his projects was the C 111. The design study (...) is a layout of the C111. It is totally made out of wood. It has no enginge or any further technic inside. It was only built for design reasons - to get a feeling for the form. (...) The company decided to build the form of the orange C111. The design study was never shown on a trade show.

From 1969 to 2001 the car was stored in a garage of our design department. In 2001 Mercedes-Benz Classic discovered the sleeping beauty. We assured the car and for the next 9 years we stored the car in our warehouse in Fellbach. In 2010 we decided to show this beautifull car for the first time in a glasbox of the museums car park.

Arunas · « **Reply #36 on:** July 28, 2011, 12:47:23 PM »

What else they're keeping from the public eyes?

Thanks, Ecnelis!

thewarlord · « **Reply #37 on:** July 28, 2011, 04:18:43 PM »

building this -very old fashioned- car in 1969, the very same year you unveil the wedge C111 at Geneva, doesn't make a lot of sense.

Imagine Lamborghini building a Miura 1:1 wooden mock-up the same year the show the LP500 Countach!

The car in discussion belongs clearly to mid-60s design lenguage.

Allemano · « **Reply #38 on:** July 29, 2011, 04:56:40 AM »

I agree with thewarlord.
It's not the first time that archivist don't know what exactly is stored in their basement.
For instance I'm still wondering about the definite story of this car and who originally designed it (Giugiaro? Michelotti, Hans A. Muth?): A different story: the Giugiaro (?) VW-Karmann

Allemano · « **Reply #39 on:** August 02, 2011, 07:24:14 AM »

It's getting hard for fans of the Sacco theory as this is showing Paul Bracq's desktop in 1965:
"the workplace of a designer (Paul Bracq), 1965. On the wall perfectly executed drawings, decoratively arranged. (...)

BUT: some doubts remain as Bruno Sacco was working at Mercedes Benz design studios at the same time. Bracq was head of design but if he has the authorship of that particular design, resp. if he personally conceived it – I don't know.
At least it's 99% proven that it dates form the mid sixties not from 1969.

Otto Puzzell · « **Reply #40 on:** August 02, 2011, 08:19:26 AM »

It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma

thewarlord · « **Reply #41 on:** August 16, 2011, 04:27:11 AM »

Paul Bracq's desktop in 1965 photo is utterly gorgeus. Immense thanks, Allemano. Perhaps a high resolution scan of the 'Le Mans' car drawings could reveal who the autograph is, if Bracq's or Sacco's???

Might I ask from which book you took this picture, and if there were any other images relating mid-engined period Mercedes cars? Thank you.

Allemano · « **Reply #42 on:** August 16, 2011, 05:24:44 AM »

@thewarlord: PM sent.

Allemano · « **Reply #43 on:** May 21, 2012, 06:51:57 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBoMKJ6ptNY

Carnut · « **Reply #44 on:** February 06, 2017, 09:08:51 AM »

What's this, from when - for 1 point?:

Remember - solving puzzles using 'Google Search by Image' is BANNED on AutoPuzzles!

Carnut · « **Reply #45 on:** February 07, 2017, 04:59:11 AM »

This puzzle is actually a repost so won't make it past the Rookies; if it's not solved there it will be deleted!

Carnut · « **Reply #46 on:** July 14, 2017, 06:13:25 PM »

It's been hard to find this puzzle as the correct name for the car is apparently SL-X, but that doesn't appear in the title at all...

You can now get a 1/18 scale model of this car if you are interested:

News:

Author Topic: Solved: Allemano's № 463 - Mercedes Benz C-111 II study by Bruno Sacco (Read 3367 times)