Author Topic: Whaddyacallit #468 - 1927 Alvis 8-cylinder 1.5 litre FWD GP car  (Read 1173 times)

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Offline Ray B.

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Ever seen this ?

If you did, please respond below and tell the make and model of this car.

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« Last Edit: November 26, 2010, 06:44:05 PM by Ray B. »
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Offline Allan L

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Re: Whaddyacallit #468
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2010, 01:51:50 PM »
Ever seen this ?
Yes but it'll have been named long before I can have a go!
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Offline Ray B.

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Re: Whaddyacallit #468
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2010, 07:41:03 PM »
Closer to you one more step, Allan.
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Offline D-type

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Re: Whaddyacallit #468
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2010, 06:05:36 AM »
1927 Alvis 8-cylinder 1.5 litre GP car
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Offline Ray B.

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Re: Whaddyacallit #468
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2010, 06:47:43 AM »
It sure is. A front wheel drive.
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Offline D-type

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Re: Whaddyacallit #468 - 1927 Alvis 8-cylinder 1.5 litre GP car
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2010, 07:56:36 AM »
  :taz:   I missed the FWD - it's in the book so I should have seen it!


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Offline Ray B.

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Re: Whaddyacallit #468 - 1927 Alvis 8-cylinder 1.5 litre GP car
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2010, 08:19:58 AM »
To tell the truth, I didn't know how rare that was at the time in race cars. So I gave you the point, the fact that you hadn't made it clear notwithstanding.
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Offline Allan L

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Re: Whaddyacallit #468 - 1927 Alvis 8-cylinder 1.5 litre GP car
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2010, 09:16:18 AM »
To tell the truth, I didn't know how rare that was at the time in race cars. So I gave you the point, the fact that you hadn't made it clear notwithstanding.
Since front-drive is inherently unsatisfactory not many cars of that layout were built and of those, none was a success. Walter Christie cam nearest to success as his cars were built at a time when the whole business of racing car design was in its early stages
The two obvious problems are (1) that a car has four small areas of contact with the ground with which it has to drive and steer or brake and steer. Concentrating the traction and steering loads on the front and leaving the rear wheels underused seems perverse.
(2) under acceleration the load on the front wheels reduces and that on the rear increases (for any car with a centre of gravity above the road surface) - so, just when you want the most grip for best traction, front-drive reduces it.
Before someone leaps down my throat and points to the majority of current production I shall say that low-powered low-performance cars can be built that work reasonably well but any current fwd car with any performance has to have traction control and probably electronic stability aids to be controllable. Sensible four-wheel-drive cars have a 40:60 front:rear torque (power) bias
British touring car racing had to handicap 4WD and rear drive cars to stop them running rings round the front-drivers (and wrecking the advertising revenue). 4WD was then banned and rear-drive cars had to carry ballast and I expect they are now banned.
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Offline Allemano

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Re: Whaddyacallit #468 - 1927 Alvis 8-cylinder 1.5 litre FWD GP car
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2010, 09:39:45 AM »
Coincidentally the Alvis FWDs are featured in the current issue of "Oldtimer Markt".
Note beside the FWD train those 'pushed' (!) rear trailing arms to shorten the wheelbase.

Offline D-type

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Re: Whaddyacallit #468 - 1927 Alvis 8-cylinder 1.5 litre FWD GP car
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2010, 01:04:14 PM »
I'm totally non-technical, but surely if you consider the analogy of leading shoe and trailing shoe brakes the 'pushed' rear trailing arms should be termed 'leading arms' .  But having said that, I have never seen anybody write 'leading arms'.
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Offline Ray B.

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Re: Whaddyacallit #468 - 1927 Alvis 8-cylinder 1.5 litre FWD GP car
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2010, 01:27:40 PM »
Thanks, Allan. I had always read that a car whose purpose is to go fast should have rear wheel drive. You make the reasons clear and obvious.
I know it should be hard to hear on someone born in André Citroën's country. Not to me, I never have bought a french car (altough I've had  FWD Minis and Audis). But write that in the french automotive press and THEY'll treat you as an antichrist !
Now why are FWD cars supposed to stick to the road better than RWD, and how come we europeans live in a world of FWD?

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Offline Allan L

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Re: Whaddyacallit #468 - 1927 Alvis 8-cylinder 1.5 litre FWD GP car
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2010, 01:51:24 PM »
I'm totally non-technical, but surely if you consider the analogy of leading shoe and trailing shoe brakes the 'pushed' rear trailing arms should be termed 'leading arms' .  But having said that, I have never seen anybody write 'leading arms'.
I agree with your analysis and have written about leading arms and leading links on occasion, but not where you'd have read it.
The arrangement of the rear end of the  Alvis shown (four cylinder sportscar)  defies logic as most of us would have used trailing arms and reduced the length of the chassis (or the strongest part at least) by about three feet with the resulting  weight saving. Leading arms suspending driven wheels have a logic, but for undriven wheels I can't see one.
As Ray writes (from André Citroën's adopted country) front drive is almost universal in Europe and in my view that owes a great deal to the production engineer's input - all the oily bits in one lump which can be offered up to the shell and bolted to it in about a minute and a half.
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Offline Carnut

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Re: Whaddyacallit #468 - 1927 Alvis 8-cylinder 1.5 litre FWD GP car
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2010, 07:03:07 PM »
Yes, FWD is mainly about packaging and cost.
But it also has the advantage of having more benign handling; Joe Public (who knows not one jot about handling/roadholding) is much less likely to get into trouble in a FWD car than in a RWD one..
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Offline metalshapes

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Re: Whaddyacallit #468 - 1927 Alvis 8-cylinder 1.5 litre FWD GP car
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2010, 10:38:45 PM »
I hate FWD with a passion.

So what I'm about to say isnt from a pro-FWD point of view..


There is a place for FWD in Motorsport, and it isnt just for low HP production based cars.


There is a shift to FWD racers at Bonneville for Land Speed Racing.

I was involved in one of those cars.


Its a spaceframe chassis, twin turbo BBC ( 2000HP+) Berkeley that is setting records right now.

The reason it works is because of the limited traction and increasingly rough surface at the Saltflats ( damage done by the indistries who are harvesting the salt ), aerodynamic loads and center of gravity.

Same reasons the old 2 stroke Saabs were competitive at snowy Rally Stages...




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Re: Whaddyacallit #468 - 1927 Alvis 8-cylinder 1.5 litre FWD GP car
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2010, 04:04:59 AM »
Yes, FWD is mainly about packaging and cost.
But it also has the advantage of having more benign handling; Joe Public (who knows not one jot about handling/roadholding) is much less likely to get into trouble in a FWD car than in a RWD one..
That's if JP likes to see the accident!
A front-driver has power-on understeer which can snap into power-off oversteer (early Minis did that quite terrifyingly) which I don't think is that benign.
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Offline Otto Puzzell

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Re: Whaddyacallit #468 - 1927 Alvis 8-cylinder 1.5 litre FWD GP car
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2010, 04:59:17 AM »
Let's not forget Harry Armenius Miller.
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Offline Allan L

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Re: Whaddyacallit #468 - 1927 Alvis 8-cylinder 1.5 litre FWD GP car
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2010, 05:49:17 AM »
Let's not forget Harry Armenius Miller.
No we shouldn't but, unless I have forgotten some aspect of his work, I'd say that the Miller front-drivers were track cars rather than road-racers.
Having said that, there was a front-drive Derby-Maserati that was unsuccessful in its day at Montlhéry in the hands of Douglas and Gwenda Hawkes but won a VSCC race in the 1960s at Oulton Park.
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Re: Whaddyacallit #468 - 1927 Alvis 8-cylinder 1.5 litre FWD GP car
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2010, 07:54:09 AM »
Yes, FWD is mainly about packaging and cost.
But it also has the advantage of having more benign handling; Joe Public (who knows not one jot about handling/roadholding) is much less likely to get into trouble in a FWD car than in a RWD one..
That's if JP likes to see the accident!
A front-driver has power-on understeer which can snap into power-off oversteer (early Minis did that quite terrifyingly) which I don't think is that benign.

Of course you can get into trouble in a front-driver: it's  a matter of going into the hedge on the other side of the road instead of on your own side!  But most modern FWD cars don't have such violent tendencies to oversteer - you can lift off and the car will pull back in.  Of course if you overdo it too much in any car you are in the sh1t anyway...!
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Re: Whaddyacallit #468 - 1927 Alvis 8-cylinder 1.5 litre FWD GP car
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2010, 11:37:19 AM »
As a rasther famous German rally driver said: A good driver can be identified by the lack of mosquitos on his wind screen. They are on his side windows.

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Re: Whaddyacallit #468 - 1927 Alvis 8-cylinder 1.5 litre FWD GP car
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2010, 11:50:14 AM »
As a rasther famous German rally driver said: A good driver can be identified by the lack of mosquitos on his wind screen. They are on his side windows.

Rather famous is the understatement of the year Mr. NL!  :hah:

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Re: Whaddyacallit #468 - 1927 Alvis 8-cylinder 1.5 litre FWD GP car
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2010, 11:52:04 AM »
As a rasther famous German rally driver said: A good driver can be identified by the lack of mosquitos on his wind screen. They are on his side windows.

Rather famous is the understatement of the year Mr. NL!  :hah:
At least that price is mine. And the year is not over yet. :)