Author Topic: Solved: Allemano's 457. - Alto Duo by Automotive Concepts  (Read 2259 times)

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Offline Allemano

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Solved: Allemano's 457. - Alto Duo by Automotive Concepts
« on: July 28, 2010, 05:02:14 AM »
Please respond below if you know the make and model designation of this car.
One point for the right and complete answer!

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« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 03:45:40 AM by Otto Puzzell »

Offline pnegyesi

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Re: Allemano's 457.
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2010, 05:46:00 AM »
If I were you I'd remove the model name from this picture
https://rareandunique.media - Rare&Unique Vehicles magazine
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Offline Allemano

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Re: Allemano's 457.
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2010, 05:47:44 AM »
S***! I hadn't noticed, thanks!

Fixed!
« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 05:53:08 AM by Allemano »

Offline Allemano

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Re: Allemano's 457.
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2010, 04:00:05 AM »
have mercy experts!

Offline Carnut

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Re: Allemano's 457.
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2010, 05:18:03 AM »
It's a Mini-based Alto Duo from 1985.
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Offline Allemano

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Re: Allemano's 457.
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2010, 05:32:12 AM »
Oh yeah!

Offline Allemano

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Re: Allemano's 457.
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2010, 07:10:56 AM »
...but wait.. I have a certain builder for this car and a company name. Do you know these?
@Carnut: locked for you!

Offline Carnut

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Re: Allemano's 457.
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2010, 08:29:37 AM »
...but wait.. I have a certain builder for this car and a company name. Do you know these?
@Carnut: locked for you!

Hmmm...  Was it made by Peerhouse Cars in Surrey?
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Offline Carnut

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Re: Allemano's 457.
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2010, 05:26:39 AM »
Proof that more than one was made?   There are quite a few small differences, esp the door/side window:
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 05:28:46 AM by Carnut »
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Offline Allemano

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Re: Allemano's 457.
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2010, 07:45:25 AM »
Hmmm...  Was it made by Peerhouse Cars in Surrey?
According to my source it wasn't made in the UK at all..

I give you one more chance to give the right answer, after that I have to unlock it again.

Offline Carnut

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Re: Allemano's 457.
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2010, 07:01:39 PM »
Perhaps it's possible your source is not correct.
From what I can gather the Alto Duo was designed by a Dave Gornall and his brother, who lived in Manchester, which is where they made the cars.  It is possible that a version (Toto?) was made outside the UK somewhere, but your puzzle picture is an Alto.

Both your puzzle car and the pictures I have posted have Lancashire registrations, which would figure if that's where they were built, although the registration is no guarantee as an import could also be registered in Lancashire.  However, if my information is correct and they both have Lancashire registrations that would seem to be more than a bit of a coincidence.

There is an Alto Duo register which is run as a sub-section of the Mini Marcos club.

Below is an extract of a blog from an Alto Duo owner talking about the car I have posted pictures of and his car(s):

QUOTE
Yes, I know about that car and those pictures; I just can't stand that colour scheme The guy who owns that one also has 2 or 3 more. He runs the Alto Duo register, which is a subset of the Mini Marcos people.

I didn't build it. I bought it a couple of years ago as a part-restored example from a Mini specialist, who fettled the mechanicals. It needs the interior re-doing from scratch, and a few minor repairs to the body. Unfortunately, 4 businesses and a toddler have made that a little hard to manage!

For my part, I like the shape, I like the height, and I like the idea. It is far too heavy. The weight stems from the fact that the brothers who designed and built it (a) didn't understand GRP, so just made it very thick, and (b) worked for their father who ran an HGV trailer business, so the chassis were welded up from whatever offcuts of steel were in the yard: every chassis is therefore a bit different, but they're all very heavy as a result, although strong. Mine even has a towbar, which will be entertaining to use

The moulds for the car still exist ("on a farm in Wales", I believe), but the current keeper of them is by all accounts a little strange and keeps planning a revival of the car with electric power. He really shouldn't bother without a substantial redesign. There is so little foot room as to be comical (I can't drive it at all with shoes on), the sills are ludicrously high (making access very awkward), and so on.
UNQUOTE
 
« Last Edit: August 09, 2010, 03:06:59 PM by Carnut »
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Offline Carnut

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Re: Allemano's 457.
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2010, 07:02:53 PM »
And here's a rear view of the same Alto I posted earlier; apparently 20 cars were made in total and 9 of them still exist:
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 07:06:31 PM by Carnut »
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Offline Allemano

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Re: Allemano's 457.
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2010, 05:57:31 AM »
Thanks for your comprehensive infos, but I think my car is a licenced and slightly different car. I've took the photo from a brochure with a captioned name which is not British..
I will doublecheck it when I'm back at home, so please be a little patient!

Offline Carnut

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Re: Allemano's 457.
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2010, 03:09:53 PM »
Thanks for your comprehensive infos, but I think my car is a licenced and slightly different car. I've took the photo from a brochure with a captioned name which is not British..
I will doublecheck it when I'm back at home, so please be a little patient!

OK look forward to hearing.
From what I can ascertain the first cars were made by the Gornall brothers in Manchester, before they sold the whole project to another guy who had more enthusiasm than sense and went bankrupt...  Don't know how many more he made, but it wasn't many.  He sold the rights on to someone in Wales who then sold them to a guy named Antoni Offert who most probably still has them.

I can find no evidence of any having made outside of the UK.

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Offline Carnut

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Re: Allemano's 457.
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2010, 04:16:55 AM »
On further investigation I find the person the Gornall brothers sold the project to was a UK-based journalist on Component Car magazine, Graham Pipe.  He made very few, if any, before off-loading the project to someone else.

Have still seen no evidence of production taking place outside the UK; maybe that brochure you have is in Welsh?!!  That's where the whole project seems to have ended up...

Furthermore, the puzzle car pictured is, I understand, the first prototype, so that particular car was definitely UK made by the Gornall brothers.
The Lancashire registration number is in fact a bit of a red herring, since it dates from 1974 whilst the car itself dates from 1985; evidently a knackered old Mini was used for the mechanicals hence the Alto retained its original registration number.

So have I earned a point yet?  Don't think there is much more info that could be added to all this...!
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 04:21:23 AM by Carnut »
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Offline Allemano

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Re: Allemano's 457.
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2010, 04:25:33 AM »
I alrady have mentioned that the brochure I have is not from the UK

Offline Carnut

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Re: Allemano's 457.
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2010, 04:42:39 AM »
I alrady have mentioned that the brochure I have is not from the UK

Well I think I have shown beyond all possible doubt that your puzzle car is an Alto Duo, made in the UK by the Gornall brothers.
If you doubt that then I think it's up to you to prove otherwise.

If you don't admit defeat on this one then I'll have send my force of umlauts to bludgeon you into submission!
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 07:07:18 PM by Carnut »
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Offline Allemano

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Re: Allemano's 457.
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2010, 04:52:56 AM »
 ^-^

Offline Paul Jaray

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Re: Allemano's 457.
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2010, 04:59:13 AM »
 :lurk:

Offline Carnut

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Re: Allemano's 457.
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2010, 07:00:48 PM »
Quote from Geoff King, who runs the Alto Duo Register:

QUOTE
It is definitely BRITISH, ALL BRITISH, it uses Mini and other BL bits.
Geoffrey   King of Winchester Alto Duo owner and expirt
UNQUOTE

Looking forward to seeing some evidence otherwise!
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 07:04:38 PM by Carnut »
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Offline Allemano

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Re: Allemano's 457.
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2010, 07:53:41 AM »
If you want you can post even more of endless facts. They're not wrong regarding the car that you've posted.
As I've written before the puzzlecar is a licenced version (yes, I repeat it once more!) which is not from the UK!! For instance 'Alto' is not part of the name...
It seems at least one of the Pro's already knows what I'm talking about...
« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 08:27:04 AM by Allemano »

Offline Carnut

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Re: Allemano's 457.
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2010, 09:39:59 AM »
If you want you can post even more of endless facts. They're not wrong regarding the car that you've posted.
As I've written before the puzzlecar is a licenced version (yes, I repeat it once more!) which is not from the UK!! For instance 'Alto' is not part of the name...
It seems at least one of the Pro's already knows what I'm talking about...

I'm sorry Allemano but I don't agree with you.
The puzzle car has been featured in various books/publications including 'Which Kit?' from 1986, in which it was presented as the Alto Duo, made by Automotive Concepts in Portsmouth, which belonged to Graham Pipe (a journalist on the magazine 'Component Car') to whom the Gornall brothers had sold the whole project, although since I understood that the puzzle picture was the original prototype it may be that Automotive Concepts simply used the old photo in their publicity.  Either way the photo is DEFINITELY a UK-made car, whatever literature you may have that says otherwise.

It's not unknown for individuals to see a car they like they look of then hi-jack it for some of their own publicity and claim that they intend to produce/sell it.  Maybe the literature you have is one of these bogus claims?
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Offline Allemano

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Re: Allemano's 457.
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2010, 10:07:19 AM »
You don't have to be sorry if you disagree with me, in return I'm not sorry with you either!  :D

I wouldn't call that source "bogus" in any way, but obviousely I misinterpreted it after I've read your last post.

It was the name 'Automotive Concepts' I was after. That name wasn't mentioned in the previous posts. It seems I've found only a dealer's brochure in German language with an adress and name stamped on the frontside of the booklet. As I said before the name Alto was missing on that brochure.

Will move it later to solved puzzles accompanied by a brandnew point added to your account. ;)

And now – calm down and relax.

Offline Carnut

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Re: Allemano's 457.
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2010, 10:20:23 AM »
Thanks!  Success at last!
I'll call off the army of umlauts...
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Offline Paul Jaray

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Re: Allemano's 457.
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2010, 12:42:49 PM »
That is what I have too.
(but I have stored this brochure under the Alto name)