Topic: A#246 Solved Csonka

[Paul Jaray]

Is it Dansk at all?

[Arunas]

Not Danks...

[ftg3plus4]

Is this Hungarian by chance?

[pnegyesi]

I'd be rather surprised, but let's hear it from Arunas

[Arunas]

I'd be rather surprised, but let's hear it from Arunas

According, to my source it is indeed from Hungary! This could be deadly wrong, so am open for any opinions and corrections from both You and anyone else.

[Paul Jaray]

Phonix?

[Arunas]

Not this...

[Paul Jaray]

... then Csonka.

[Arunas]

... then Csonka.

Yep! That's the name I have for it..

pnegyesi, what do You think?

Could I post some other Hungarian cars that I have for confirmation of their true identities?

[pnegyesi]

Janos Csonka never built such a car. Oh, how I love those fake scale models which the Haris Brothers invaded the world with 

[Paul Jaray]

Here's a Csonka:
http://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/index.php?topic=4657.0

[Arunas]

Thank You, PJ!

pnegyesi, what do You mean, by saying "fake"?

Here is a couple of  cars. Hungarian as I have them.

[pnegyesi]

Yes, that's a real Csonka.

For many decades, from the 1950s, the Haris Brothers, Lajos and Otto were the only "experts" on the history of the Hungarian auto industry. They have slightly abused what they have gathered together and added new models, new companies. Fake photos, scale models on never-built cars - they could do everything, because there was no one who would check. Well, this has changed during the last few years and unfortunately there's a lot of bad blood between the Haris brothers and yours truly.

[pnegyesi]

Thank You, PJ!

pnegyesi, what do You mean, by saying "fake"?

Here is a couple of  cars. Hungarian as I have them.

Szamo
With correct accents: Géza Szám built this postal van in 1902.

And yes, József Bory also built some cars, but his 1908 model looked different from this one. And according to his own documents his first cars were completed in 1908, not in 1907

[Paul Jaray]

Here's another view:

[Arunas]

Thanks a lot!

[ftg3plus4]

Darn it! I was thinking Csonka when I said "Hungarian." I should have just gone for it, but it seemed like such a long shot.

[Arunas]

Several other obscure names: Banki-Csonka, Padvinecz-Heilser and Nandor Hora. Do they say anything?

[ftg3plus4]

For many decades, from the 1950s, the Haris Brothers, Lajos and Otto were the only "experts" on the history of the Hungarian auto industry. They have slightly abused what they have gathered together and added new models, new companies. Fake photos, scale models on never-built cars - they could do everything, because there was no one who would check.

Hmmm... why would someone do that?

[pnegyesi]

Haris brothers had to do it. It was thought that during the 2nd World War all correspondence, photos and documents were lots related to the Hungarian auto industry.
When István Zsuppán, the Haris brothers and Ferenc Váradi started collecting materials in the 1950s it soon became evident that there are gaping holes in the history. But the Haris brothers wanted international fame and for that they had to have complete stories so they filled out the gaps by making up stories...

I don't want to go into too much details, but there were monetary rewards as well. Arunas mentioned Nándor Hóra, who was a bicycle racer and later a repairman. He also built a few motorized quadricycles in the very early 1900s. Hóra was lucky enough to survive the 2nd World War. Both István Zsuppán and the Haris brothers visited him and took over some of his archive documents. A few years later the Haris brothers "found" a Hora automobile, a car which never existed.

I am a bit emotional on this as a librarian and an avid researcher of this topic for 17 years now, I am fighting an uphill battle to clean up the history of the Hungarian auto industry.

Please don't ask me about the Hungarian Museum of Transport and their role. That'd bring you another tirade 

[pnegyesi]

Several other obscure names: Banki-Csonka, Padvinecz-Heilser and Nandor Hora. Do they say anything?

Dónát Bánki and János Csonka "invented" the spray carburetor in 1893, but I am beginning to have doubts about them being first on this field. BTW is anyone living near London?

Podvinecz and Heisler was the predecessor of MÁG, which built cars like the Magotax, Magomobil, Magosix and Magosupersix. P&H built a few cars between 1905-1912.

[alecwolf]

Haris brothers had to do it. It was thought that during the 2nd World War all correspondence, photos and documents were lots related to the Hungarian auto industry.
When István Zsuppán, the Haris brothers and Ferenc Váradi started collecting materials in the 1950s it soon became evident that there are gaping holes in the history. But the Haris brothers wanted international fame and for that they had to have complete stories so they filled out the gaps by making up stories...

I don't want to go into too much details, but there were monetary rewards as well. Arunas mentioned Nándor Hóra, who was a bicycle racer and later a repairman. He also built a few motorized quadricycles in the very early 1900s. Hóra was lucky enough to survive the 2nd World War. Both István Zsuppán and the Haris brothers visited him and took over some of his archive documents. A few years later the Haris brothers "found" a Hora automobile, a car which never existed.

I am a bit emotional on this as a librarian and an avid researcher of this topic for 17 years now, I am fighting an uphill battle to clean up the history of the Hungarian auto industry.

Please don't ask me about the Hungarian Museum of Transport and their role. That'd bring you another tirade 

As i remember there were even fake persons in the hungarian automobile history. Just like the collective farm peasant Francois Szisz...  (But he was not the Haris brothers creature.) 

[Paul Jaray]

Please don't ask me about the Hungarian Museum of Transport and their role. That'd bring you another tirade

I won't....but fell free to share what you'd like  .

[pnegyesi]

As i remember there were even fake persons in the hungarian automobile history. Just like the collective farm peasant Francois Szisz...  (But he was not the Haris brothers creature.) 

No, the fake Szisz was brought to us by György Rózsa, a sports journalist turned to bard who sang beautiful tales on past events...

As for the Museum of Transport, let's just say that there are people out there who'd like the museum to be erased for the sins some of the people there committed. In 1959 there was a report on the auto collection of the Museum featuring a few images, including one on a Rolls-Royce in very bad condition. By the time the basic inventory was laid out in 1970, the Rolls-Royce disappeared.
In the late 1980s there were rare Ikarus buses, Csepel trucks to be saved. And the Museum said: "we don't have enough space for these vehicles. We can only collect scale models" and so these buses and trucks were destroyed.
Not to mention the rare powertrain of a cca 1st World War Latil FWD (!) truck, which rotted in the open for two decades.

[Paul Jaray]

That sucks...